"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Norm F]

Especially on this one, the catch looks very familiar...

[Norm F]

compare catches.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Interesting link with some in a French Vet group--

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...68#post7404968

Finding a box of medals from a veteran family will never prove anything.
The bagdes may have been found in 1944, 1975, 2000...

Some items may have been taken in 1944, but other may have been purchased a few years ago...

How many dozen of cases of dealers or sellers "sprinkling" their lots with fakes ?

See You

Vince

[Norm F]

Hi,

Finding a box of medals from a veteran family will never prove anything.
The badges may have been found in 1944, 1975, 2000...

Some items may have been taken in 1944, but other may have been purchased a few years ago...

How many dozen of cases of dealers or sellers "sprinkling" their lots with fakes ?

See You

Vince

Vince, if you read on you'll see in post #207 that wasn't a box from a veteran family but just one collector's accumulations over time.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

thanks Norm for the additional infos, i only saw the original post so it was not as obvious.

I'm still trying to investigate the "Bacqueville saga" with parisian contacts "in the know" of dealers/fakes/surfacings of the 70/80's.

See You

Vince

[scotty1418]

compare catches.

Norm look at the base of both catches - a very different system.

[Norm F]

Norm look at the base of both catches - a very different system.

The zinc badge uses a base plate of course, not required on a brass badge. The point is, the same type of slightly concave, round-edged flat wire is used for both. It is what it is -- no further conclusions drawn.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

In the Heer world there is quite similiar case of so called "Spanish IAB" which by some collectors are believed to be made in Spain late war or early post war for Blue Division vets as a replacement pieces since it was not forbidden in Spain to wear swastika emblems after the war ended. Other say these are mere fakes.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

And a similar setup is seen on the variant summer uniform breast eagle, also postulated to have a French origin, from a vet bring-back collection that was posted here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...31#post7361131

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

And a similar setup is seen on the variant summer uniform breast eagle, also postulated to have a French origin, from a vet bring-back collection that was posted here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...31#post7361131

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,

Again - I think one could point out a number of differences between the KM eagle attachment and the French 'chasseur' attachment to agree that they were not of the same manufacture - the same style of attachment system, sure.

[Norm F]

Again - I think one could point out a number of differences between the KM eagle attachment and the French 'chasseur' attachment to agree that they were not of the same manufacture - the same style of attachment system, sure.

I wasn't trying to nail down the manufacturer -- just the country of manufacture.

The interesting observations about that collection with the metal breast eagle are:
a) supposedly from a U.S. vet from the French channel ports
b) aside from the 5 "French-made" badges (four of which were boxed), the cloth breast eagle (rightly or wrongly) is also sometimes described by collectors as "French-made"
c) that type of metal breast eagle in the grouping is relatively uncommon with it's unique setup
d) although there are some german manufactured items in that grouping as well, all are manufactured in wartime.
e) the box the whole collection was stored in was from an American company that went out of business in 1957.

In other words, it didn't seem to be collection amassed over decades extending on into the 1970s era.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jean-Claude]

I wasn't trying to nail down the manufacturer -- just the country of manufacture.

The interesting observations about that collection with the metal breast eagle are:
a) supposedly from a U.S. vet from the French channel ports
b) aside from the 5 "French-made" badges (four of which were boxed), the cloth breast eagle (rightly or wrongly) is also sometimes described by collectors as "French-made"
c) that type of metal breast eagle in the grouping is relatively uncommon with it's unique setup
d) although there are some german manufactured items in that grouping as well, all are manufactured in wartime.
e) the box the whole collection was stored in was from an American company that went out of business in 1957.

In other words, it didn't seem to be collection amassed over decades extending on into the 1970s era.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm

Interesting point about similarity of catches between this type of summer bird and Backeville KM badges...I have no ponies in this race and beside this level of detail/knowledge is way over my head so I'll sit this one out but I just wanted to point out a few things.

A) While the most common version of this type of summer uniform eagle is indeed zink with the same hardware (and typical poor finish) than the specimen you show there is also a less often encountered brass (or tombac) version of the same eagle with the same hinge assembly but a round stock catch (without plate) welded directly onto the back. I only have a gold version of this type but there is also a silver tombac/brass version as well

B) From what I understand from my readings here on the forum (but I cant locate the thread) a german regalia manufacturer "lobby" (of sorts) opposed the manufacturing of german regalia outside the Reich in occupied counties. I appreciate they eventually had to back down because there was lots of foreign produced insignia later during the war (badges/insignia) in occupied countries

C) The zink version of this eagle may coincide (period wise) with Baqueville KM badges and use the same catch but given the niche brass(or tombac) badges and insignia occupy in the TR timeline I supect the tombac version of this same bird was produced either pre-war or early war in Germany long before Baqueville (or whoever) produced those KM badges.

D) Interesting to see the hinge type on the french badges (Mourgeon attributed?) is also quite common on german items (attached picts of reverse of the Baltic Cross, Gau Baden Badge, ADAC (Alg. Deutches Auto Club) badge which are all pre-war pieces to the best of my knowledge

Best regards

JC

[Norm F]

...
C) The zink version of this eagle may coincide (period wise) with Baqueville KM badges and use the same catch but given the niche brass(or tombac) badges and insignia occupy in the TR timeline I supect the tombac version of this same bird was produced either pre-war or early war in Germany long before Baqueville (or whoever) produced those KM badges.

D) Interesting to see the hinge type on the french badges (Mourgeon attributed?) is also quite common on german items (attached picts of reverse of the Baltic Cross, Gau Baden Badge, ADAC (Alg. Deutches Auto Club) badge which are all pre-war pieces to the best of my knowledge

Best regards

JC

Hi JC,

Germany took France in May 1940 so there was time to start production in Tombak before the transition to zinc; in other words, the use Tombak doesn't equate with pre-war production.

It would indeed be interesting to demonstrate similar hinges on unequivocally German-made badges, but the typical semi-circular folded sheet metal hinges on German badges are different from the French Chasseur badges; if you think of the hinge as a book, the German hinges are attached to the badge by the "spine" whereas the French hinges are attached by the bottom edge so that the "spine" of the book forms a shelf that functions as the foot plate --- just like the "French-made" KM badge hinges.

None of this definitive of course, but interesting food for thought.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i got a few more infos on the "Bacqueville", and i have a few comments to make.

1) the story of "a large quantity [of badge that came] from a widow of a Navy officer who was working [...] in the ministry in the 60's-70's" is common to the usual bull***t used by crooks here in France. The almost similar story was spread by René Johnson who dealed (and produced ?) the fake "Delande" Croix de Guerre Légionnaire ("widow of an LVF officer who got a CDGL lot"). The Johnson "story" was made in the late 50's, early 60's. Testimony of the father of Eric Lefèvre, the specialist of the French in the WH/SS etc available in "Militaria Magazine N°12".

2) in 1944, archives of the Etat Français (french collaboration) were mostly destroyed, not a lot was kept intact, due to a semi-official order by De Gaulle and the new government. Be sure that all official places were cleaned of "German items" days, weeks, months and maybe only a few years after the end of the war (you will always find exceptions, but a "large quantity of badges that are available everywhere no). Therefore the "lot that was found by workers during renovation of the ministry of the navy in the 70's" (another story that circulates) is very improbable if not impossible. Hundred if not thousand were sold everywhere since then... It was kilos and kilos of badges, that would have been recycled during or after the war by the maker/authorities.

3) Right after the war Mourgeon was already doing excellent quality badges, it is doubtful that they did those very average looking models.

4) if i'm right, some badges that were officially created after the regulation of manufacturers are still available on the "Bacqueville" collection ? This is non-sense to have a manufacturer making badges that could not be used, months if not years after it was forbidden to made them (no license).

5) It seemed that the dealer who "found the large quantity" (no matter the beautiful story of the poor widow or the workers) of "Bacqueville" badges was...
Pierre-Ange Caravano.
Yes, the "Johannes Floch" of France...
Something fishy to say the least... no pun intended with the KM.

Well don't be mad because thousand of collectors were tricked in the same way with the fake "Delande" CDGL for decades... Same for the pink smock, or the SS painted "champagne" runes helmet.

See You

Vince

[Norm F]

Hi Vince,

So are you suggesting that the "French-made" badges were made in France in the late 1950's, coinciding with what you called the "Johnson story"?

Best regards,
---Norm