Originally posted by Ludwig
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I would think it would be the other way around.
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I would think it would be the other way around.pseudo-expert -
OK, here you go. This sniper badge WAS found in a garage sale back in the 60's. I don't know what the buyer paid for it, but I bet it wasn't much more than 50 cents.Originally posted by 101combatvet View PostMy thoughts exactly!!!!! The "accepted originals" don't look much like known original sleeve insignia of the period in my opinion. I would not have one in my collection unless it was purchased from a junk box for .50 cents at a yard sale.
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Exactly! There are now 3 German references that I have (with no connection between the 3) which present the "accepted" style. The Forman book has an "accepted" one on the cover. Dietrich Maerz's superb "The Awards of the Heer" has 4 of the "accepted" ones in his book. These things really do matter.Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
The perfect analogy is FJ clip-on helmet covers. For decades many FJ collectors wallowed around wondering which were good and which were issue "accepted" examples. Some always knew. Now no respectable reference is confused anymore. The internet has enabled an international collaboration on matters such as this, and the hobby has benefited greatly from this "clarity." Some will remain unconvinced, but.....Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Though I partly agree with you, I still ask myself how or on what basis 'accepted' is defined. I fear that sometimes, the pure repetition of a badge on the internet leads to creating an acceptance, while there's no scientific evidence to back the claim up.Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post
Again, I like the look of these and wish they'd be legit, but personally will not touch them unless presented true evidence to back their wartime existence up.
Don't forget as well, 3 snipers mentioned here who said and wrote, that they never got a sniper badge in cloth. Allerberger, Kuhn and Sutkus. And those are PRIMARY sources.
MarkusComment
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Hi Markus......
This can be said for every piece of TR era collectible today. We, the collectors of today, have to use every available avenue we can to determine what is real or fantasy. We are obligated to gather as much information as we can from wherever it may present itself. And hopefully use it wisely.Originally posted by markus View Post
Fortunately, we have had the shared experiences of some that have gone before us, but are, sadly, no longer here. They shared with us the knowledge they gained by their personal experiences traveling in Europe following the cessation of hostilities there. Gathering up the collectibles we so treasure today.
In this particular case, concerning the sniper badge, there is very little to go on. Certainly not nearly as much as for everything else...save maybe the balloon badge, sea-rescue badge, luft panzer and luft ccc.
The internet is not the sole source of information we are using to gather the evidence we seek to verify items of interest. But it has become a valuable tool for sharing and presenting such evidence.
Repetition, culminating in the creation of acceptance, is not just limited to interaction on the internet. It also comes from the following....in combination with the internet:
- direct veteran aquisition
- militaria shows/fairs
- collections
- books
- veterans recollections
- collectors experiences
- museums
- period photographs
No single one of these is enough, but in combination they have allowed us to reasonably separate the wheat from the chaff. I understand too that these examples, when taken individually, are not considered by some to be 100% bulletproof.
Granted. it's not perfect, but by working together here on the internet we have been able to clear up a great many mysteries, and solve some perplexing questions. And some simple ones too. Together. It hasn't been easy, and there has been a lot of disappointment along the way, and lots of hair pulling to boot. Probably more to come.
It has been rough on individual collectors to find out that their prized possessions are FAKES. Whether they be RK's, or simple West Wall medals....it hurts. But we have manged to come to a 'consensus' if you will on a great many of our precious collectibles. A 'consensus' based on study, solid evidence, and the fortuitous sharing of accumulated knowledge.
The sniper badge represents one of the most challenging of issues facing collectors of TR era items. One that can hopefully be solved by using every method at our disposal.
My hat is off to those of you that have spent a great deal of your valuable time attempting to crack this nut, and I do hope that success is on the horizon, or not far from it. I suppose we shall see.
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Bruce, I agree with much of what you just said.
As a general statement, when I said "internet" I meant many of us have met here and pursued our sharing of the information behind the scenes (as what is happening right now through PMs). Increased netorking opportunities. "Birds of a feather flock together." Not just through forum discussions. That was not possible before.Last edited by Willi Z.; 02-16-2014, 05:54 PM.Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Gents -
Through the help of a very kind historian I was able to contact and speak to a fellow author of a book on German snipers this afternoon.
He mentioned to me that he had had interviews and written correspondence with more than 35 snipers (Heer & Waffen-SS) over a period of over 15 years and that NON (!) of these men ever got a physical sniper patch. There were numerous rewards given to these men for their successful kills, but apparently non of them got a physical award. The award was known, award certificates handed out and Soldbuch/Wehrpass entries made, but no patch. The author, who wishes to remain anonymous, cannot rule out the existence of the patches, he said, but personally feels that they were not given out if they did exist in the first place.
That's a lot, if not too many "coincidences" from primary sources for my taste...
Now, if collectors and dealers reach a different "consensus" and swear these existed on the basis of hear-say amongst themselves, price-catalogues, etc., I can really not help any further on the issue of sniper badges...
That's it from my side, I promise.
Cheers,
MarkusComment
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Don't forget those books! If it's in print it has to be true.
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Markus, for the same reason you doubt these badges were made, I doubt all your words.
Any solid proof to support what are you saying? Names of snipers, regiments, divisions where they served? Any doc?
Please, show us something, if not for the same reason I can say yesterday I spoke with a researcher who wants remain anonymous, and he told me he saw hundreds snipers with their badges.
How you can't believe me? I'm able to show you these patches too! But you?
My books:
- THE WEHRPAß & SOLDBUCH OF THE WH
- THE SS TK RING
- THE ITALIAN-GERMAN MEDAL
- THE ANTI PARTISAN BADGE
- THE AWARDS OF THE LW
and more!
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At the risk of droning on and on... I have met many old Kriegsmarine Vets... and only one of about 15-20 had ever heard of a Navy Honor Clasp.... and he thought it was the pinback Frontspange...Originally posted by markus View Post
Out of the same group, a tiny, tiny portion (cant remember, maybe 2-3, it was long ago) had even heard of the Navy Frontspange... I dont think any had ever seen one..
People relying on Vet "Primary source" are on a rockier road even than the "Wikipedia readers"
Once again, I have no opinion on the Sniper badge... just commenting on the reasoning behind the research..Comment
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Yes, but we a lot of photographic evidence of the Navy Honor Roll Clasp and the other more obscure Navy badges being worn. We have little or nothing that shows a Sniper Badge being worn and that match the current "accepted" version.Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post
What really bothers me about these is that back in the 60's these were never seen. Other versions were hailed as the real deal. Then these "accepted versions" just appeared out of nowhere in the 70's or 80's and were suddenly accepted as the real deal.
For me, the Sniper Badge goes the way of the Luftwaffe Tank Badge. There are some really believable examples of the tank badge that might be good, or might not. Time will tell, maybe...
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Originally posted by tgn View Post
Hi,
How many photos do you know of the Luftwaffe honor clasp or Navy honour clap being worn? Or the Navy Frontspange (as opposed to the U boat clasp)?
Look now many thousands of Luftwaffe guys qualified for the Honour clasp... I have seen 2 or 3 photos of it being worn, if that.... Proportionally that would probably make it unlikely we will ever find a photo of the sniper badge.
Added to that... you have to throw the "manufactured, but never delivered" possibility into the equation. Late 44. early 45.... it is possible that a firm made badges that were delivered to XX... but never made it to YY... it is very possible that most snipers ever saw one... but does not mean they were not made and delivered to a depot who had more important things to do then distribute badges...
We can say "these were unkown in the 1960s"... but that is assuming that everything made 39-45 was availible in the west... what if the first batches were delivered to a depot in Cottbus, or Ueckermünde... we cannot use the "I never saw one in London in the 60s" as a measure... Plenty of gems disapeared behind the Iron Curtain....
If I did collect WW2 I would be on the fence... both sides have produced interesting arguments... but neither side has proved its case...Comment
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Gentlemen -
For Antonio who basically called me a liar...
Hans V., 547. Volksgrenadier-Division
Hans M., 547. Volksgren. Div.
Josef A., 8./Geb.Jg. Rgt. 144
Matthias H., 7./Geb.Jg.Rgt. 144
Bruno S., Stab II./Gren. Rgt. 196
Willi P., 14./LSSAH
Joseph H., 6./LSSAH
Robert K., 19./LSSAH (SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 2 - Wisch)
Martin F., 5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking"
Walter W., 11./SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen"
Walter S., 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"
Franz K., 9./Pz. Gren. Rgt 38 "GvB"
Walter B., SS-Fsch Jg. Btl.
Josef W. 7./Geb.Jg. Rgt. 144
(...)
We will not convince anyone here whether these existed pre-May 1945 or not.
And so the thread will end in the typical fashion of an ugly pie-fight, personal attacks, which becomes a waste of time better spent elsewhere...
Cheers,
MarkusComment
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I would still like an explanation from Peter von Lukacz about where he found and the provenance on the Weissinger Soldbuch with which came the sniperbadge in Gold, according to him ? JComment
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