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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 03:29 PM

A second class badge and the award for it.

Followed by the words of Gefreiter Rohde of Jäger Regiment 228.

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**WalterB** · 02-17-2014, 05:09 PM

I am not a collector of these badges, but this thread has been fascinating. Thank you to both sides.

**tgn** · 02-17-2014, 07:20 PM

The sniper badge was for sure instituted. Even American intelligence was aware of that and the information published. Soldbuch notations were made for awards. We have surviving examples to prove that. Weeven have some believable award documents. But I doubt any actual sniper badges were made and issued. I now think all these various sniper badges, both the earlier and later "accepted" versions, are just post 45 creations from the published designs. There was no wartime production that got left in a railway car, the back of a factory or some obscure supply dump found many years after the war. They were just never made. The ones that appear with documents or soldbuch groups were just added in recent years to embellish the lot. JMO

Tom

**chen** · 02-17-2014, 08:52 PM

If the "accepted" versions are post 45 creation to add to documents/ soldbuch , are there many around in the market?

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 09:18 PM

What utter xxxxxx-xxxxxx nonsense......

So they told the troops to remove and conceal their badges, but there weren't any badges to remove and conceal? All these books with vet peices are all some sort of conspiracy, and the authors/ vets, bought them from the same dealer? The last vet didn't get one not because there weren't enough witnesses and they then failed to do the paperwork, but it was really because there weren't any real badges to be awarded? They gave out the awards and entered them in their Soldbuchs but there weren't any badges to give out? It was authorized in August of '44 with an effective date of 1 Sep '44, but they couldn't spare the resources to make a cloth badge? Or they must have known they were going to lose the war in 9 months so they didn't bother making them? The US Army figured out what they looked like from reading German documents and not from seeing examples? They figured they would let the GIs know what they looked like even though there were really none to see?

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

Gary, I sympathize with you. Many many years ago I traded off some really nice items to get this Sniper Badge, which at the time was accepted as original. In fact, the type now accepted as original was not yet known at all. Well now I have a declared fake, so there you have it.

Tom

Ah, this was just explained to me. Now I understand.....

Where was it accepted? And when? None of the ones in the books I referenced look like that. The ones pictured in the US Army manual don't look like that. None of the texts in books, German or English, describe the badge to look like that. And I have had some of the references since I bought them in Germany in the late 80's (the one below is not one of them).

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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 10:49 PM

A silver or gold one in Detlev Niemann's price guide.

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110.jpg (98.0 KB, 251 views)

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 11:04 PM

And though I don't have this reference I have no idea what is presented within, the one on the cover is like the others.

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dd9e71a88da0150efdfee110_L__SY300_.jpg (19.6 KB, 248 views)

**jacquesf** · 02-17-2014, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

What utter xxxxxx-xxxxxx nonsense......

So they told the troops to remove and conceal their badges, but there weren't any badges to remove and conceal? All these books with vet peices are all some sort of conspiracy, and the authors/ vets, bought them from the same dealer? The last vet didn't get one not because there weren't enough witnesses and they then failed to do the paperwork, but it was really because there weren't any real badges to be awarded? They gave out the awards and entered them in their Soldbuchs but there weren't any badges to give out? It was authorized in August of '44 with an effective date of 1 Sep '44, but they couldn't spare the resources to make a cloth badge? Or they must have known they were going to lose the war in 9 months so they didn't bother making them? The US Army figured out what they looked like from reading German documents and not from seeing examples? They figured they would let the GIs know what they looked like even though there were really none to see?

To add to this and the argument that they were never made. What about the proofs and examples which was made as a basis for the design and actual approval of the badges (which everybody agreed happened) . So they just never made another one and destroyed the "proof". Hmmm don't think so.

Then the post war fakers decided to fill the gap and made perfect examples, based on the Paperwork provided by Willi, but the Germans failed to do so during wartime. J

**chen** · 02-18-2014, 12:40 AM

I believe the sniper badges were indeed made, but not too many due to late in the war. Furthermore, the recipients seldom wore the badges for obvious reasons . Hence why so less photographic record.
That Weisinger grouping is a thumb up grouping.

**Chris Boonzaier** · 02-18-2014, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

The sniper badge was for sure instituted. Even American intelligence was aware of that and the information published. Soldbuch notations were made for awards. We have surviving examples to prove that. Weeven have some believable award documents. But I doubt any actual sniper badges were made and issued. I now think all these various sniper badges, both the earlier and later "accepted" versions, are just post 45 creations from the published designs. There was no wartime production that got left in a railway car, the back of a factory or some obscure supply dump found many years after the war. They were just never made. The ones that appear with documents or soldbuch groups were just added in recent years to embellish the lot. JMO

Tom

Hi Tom,

As the neutral observer here.... what makes you believe that? It cannot be anything more than gut feeling?

Between the instittion and the end of the war, months passed... and German industry was not destroyed in late 1944....

Best
Chris

**jacquesf** · 02-18-2014, 04:37 AM

This is a post by Robin Lumbsden in 2004 in this thread " http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+badge+picture Very interesting thread. There also is a pic of a sniper badge somewhere on the WAF, which some claimed was photoshopped.

"On P.97 of Hormann's book on the German Infantry, there is shown the Sniper Badge in Gold awarded on 16th December, 1944 to Heinrich Franken of the 7th Company, Grenadier Regiment 58. It differs from the ones you show in that:-

1. The stitching on the eagle's breast is in yellow, not white, thread;
2. The background is tan, not grey;
3. The border is yellow celleon, not gold.

There are other slight differences.

"The badge was cetainly produced pre-May 1945, as the German Press shows a photo of Himmler presenting it to three successful snipers who, between them, killed the equivalent of two Russian Companies in the last months of the war. However, it can still be produced legally to this day under the 1957 regulations, and I have never seen anything to prove that the badge was actually worn during the war - even if it was presented. Snipers have said that if they wore such a badge it would have meant certain death if they had been captured - on all fronts.

The ones you show, with white chest stitching and grey background, appeared in some numbers during the late 1980s, and my own opinion is that they are post-war productions.

Regards,

Robin."

Attached Files

sniperTrageweisesniper1944.jpg (46.6 KB, 235 views)

**jacquesf** · 02-18-2014, 04:43 AM

I found the tread where the pic is and the discussion around it http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...picture&page=2

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-18-2014, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

What utter xxxxxx-xxxxxx nonsense......

So they told the troops to remove and conceal their badges, but there weren't any badges to remove and conceal? All these books with vet peices are all some sort of conspiracy, and the authors/ vets, bought them from the same dealer? The last vet didn't get one not because there weren't enough witnesses and they then failed to do the paperwork, but it was really because there weren't any real badges to be awarded? They gave out the awards and entered them in their Soldbuchs but there weren't any badges to give out? It was authorized in August of '44 with an effective date of 1 Sep '44, but they couldn't spare the resources to make a cloth badge? Or they must have known they were going to lose the war in 9 months so they didn't bother making them? The US Army figured out what they looked like from reading German documents and not from seeing examples? They figured they would let the GIs know what they looked like even though there were really none to see?

Willi, don't you know there was an international masonic plot, a world conspiracy about these badges? How you can missed it?!?

It started during the war, and the order was: "the world must doubt for ever about these badges".
After the war the international masonic plot made thousand badges and changed his previuos order: "now we have done thousand badges, all the vet families and all the dealers must have these. Contact all them and sell only these as originals."
And so it happened.

End of story.

BTW: Forman's badges come from a family in Austria. I know it because I know the story behind. But probably the family were they came from was contacted from the masonic plot before.

**tgn** · 02-18-2014, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Chris Boonzaier View Post

Hi Tom,

As the neutral observer here.... what makes you believe that? It cannot be anything more than gut feeling?

Between the instittion and the end of the war, months passed... and German industry was not destroyed in late 1944....

Best
Chris

I said it was JMO. If you don't like, just ignore it. But I will never put out any serious cash to buy one of these again, unless new information comes forth to prove otherwise. I am a reasonable guy and can change my mind. And I don't mind "collecting by consensus" as long as there is some substantial proof behind it.

Heck, I have often defended the indefensible on this forum until the bitter end until they were either proven otherwise, or there was no certain conclusion other than "I don't like it". Isn't that what this forum is for? Or are we suppose to just be lemmings and follow the "accepted" opinions?

BTW, where are all those original Warsaw Shields? Instituted, design approved, but never made?

Tom

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