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**Antonio Scapini** · 02-17-2014, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by markus View Post

Gentlemen -

For Antonio who basically called me a liar...

Hans V., 547. Volksgrenadier-Division
Hans M., 547. Volksgren. Div.
Josef A., 8./Geb.Jg. Rgt. 144
Matthias H., 7./Geb.Jg.Rgt. 144
Bruno S., Stab II./Gren. Rgt. 196
Willi P., 14./LSSAH
Joseph H., 6./LSSAH
Robert K., 19./LSSAH (SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 2 - Wisch)
Martin F., 5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking"
Walter W., 11./SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen"
Walter S., 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"
Franz K., 9./Pz. Gren. Rgt 38 "GvB"
Walter B., SS-Fsch Jg. Btl.
Josef W. 7./Geb.Jg. Rgt. 144
(...)

We will not convince anyone here whether these existed pre-May 1945 or not.

And so the thread will end in the typical fashion of an ugly pie-fight, personal attacks, which becomes a waste of time better spent elsewhere...

Cheers,
Markus

Never say you are a liar.

But I can doubt as you did.

I can say you: I received my badge from a collector who took it from the german sniper Heinrich H. from the Pz. Gren. Rgt. 104.

How can you believe my words?!?!?

Please Markus, don't make a drama, we are simply discussing. I never attacked another collector and I'll probably never do. Militaria for me is a pleasure, not a ring for fighting. Take it easy.

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

And so the thread will end in the typical fashion of an ugly pie-fight, personal attacks, which becomes a waste of time better spent elsewhere...

Yup, increasingly this becomes my view as well, in thread after thread, section after section........sadly so many good solid collectors with much to share have already reached that point.

The badge Mike Davis posted was from an old respected collection. It sold quickly to a friend, and regardless of how many feel about these on this thread, it just doesn't matter......

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 12:37 PM

My uncle served on the Russian Front for the entire war (winter of '41 until he deserted in Feb '45 trying to save my mother and family in Silesia). He would tell me that they were always afraid about being captured and having the Soviets think they were a sniper. Bad enough being captured, but death would certainly be swift if they were thought to be a sniper. German vets felt the same way when facing GIs. I talked to many GIs who would say "we were being shot at by a sniper, so when we caught him we killed the SOB." I would ask how he knew he was a sniper and the vet would almost always become silent. This was also common knowledge to German soldiers. They weren't ignorant fools and would not have been likely to wear one, not knowing if their foe knew what it was. Snipers were known to ditch their scopes and any camo garment upon imminent capture, etc, etc. I knew a FJ vet of the Ardennes who said when captured with some Panzer crewman, they were lined up and the GIs pulled the Panzer guys out and shot them because they thought they were SS.

Combine this with authorization being the fall of '44, how many would have made it to the the front and been awarded? Most German soldiers cared about only one thing after the summer of '44; surviving. And if awarded would they wear it, or just carry it somewhere? Or were they home in a hospital when they were given the award, like so many other awards?

If a photo of a vet wearing a badge popped up, the naysayers would say it was photo shopped. If an author presents one in a book from a vet (like the photo I added) they would say you can't trust books. Most know we can not always trust the memories of veterans in an absolute sense. Some would say that because they never saw one in the 60's no collector could have had them.

We do have copies of the order authorizing the award.

All this makes it difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, something so many here (who wouldn't be likely to even try to buy one anyhow) seem to require on this matter, as they fight anyone who appears to know something they don't know. We are comparing apples to oranges when discussing other awards.

To add to what Chris pointed out; I know many FJ veterans who refuse to believe they ever had water pattern smocks, wire on helmets, etc, etc.

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

Don't forget those books! If it's in print it has to be true.

I see Mark Bando is listed as one of your friends. What do you think of his books? He is probably one of the most objective and honest authors out there, telling it like it was. Maybe the next one of us to see him should ask him about these badges and/or how GIs would have handled a POW who appeared to be a sniper. Perhaps with his tremendous collection of direct vet obtained pieces, he might even have an example or know of someone who does.

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:21 PM

.

Attached Files

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:24 PM

Plenty of information in wartime German and US references, as well as US and German books since about 2000, when the pieces of the puzzle were coming together. Not as early as when earlier references on FJs stated blue helmets, blue smocks, blue jump trousers.which were finally corrected by the mid-90's.

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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:25 PM

..

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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:29 PM

Note that the background (Hintergrund) is listed as Grau, and not Feldgrau. The first repros back in my childhood were always gray. Now the best repros are Feldgrau. But I am sure we'll see new ones soon....in gray.

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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:33 PM

Some will say "well that doesn't mean they were made or issued." We know Hitler issued the order in the fall of '44. The US Army knew about them in March of '45. It would appear that other German wartime references point to early '45, so that would not mean they could have been awarded in great numbers, even if they wanted to.

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 01:49 PM

Here is how the badges are presented in the "War Department Technical Manual TM-E 30-451" published on 15 March 1945. Nice of them to do it in color, in order to capture the background color.

Attached Files

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**Simon O.** · 02-17-2014, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Jeff V View Post

Hi Jacques, it makes perfect sense to me. A person is awarded the patch but because there are no patches on hand to give them they are told that they will receive the patch later. Award is entered into soldbuch but actual patch never given to them due to end of war.

This is exactly what the official order authorising the award of the Lappland shield states, that the award was to be made and the shields themselves would follow on at a later date.

**Simon O.** · 02-17-2014, 02:45 PM

There's an interesting side note to the story mentioned in 'Sniper on the Eastern front'

on page 108, when talking of the snipers badge the following is stated "The silver strips, which few wore, were dangerous enough and the meaning of an official badge would soon have come to the enemy's attention"

about 10 years ago I was corresponding with an Austrian whose uncle had fought with the 3 Geb.Div. (same division as Hetzenauer and Allerberger)

He had the following insignia from his uncle, including the mentioned improvised 'silver strip'

Attached Files

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 02:48 PM

From a 1989 book on snipers and their techniques. It mentions that in 1945 they were told to "remove and conceal" their sniper badges before capture.

Attached Files

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**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 03:00 PM

Here is the Solbuch entry for the award of the 3rd class badge to Unteroffizer Franken, and his badge once again.

Attached Files

**Willi Z.** · 02-17-2014, 03:01 PM

And a field-made document for the badge. With his award for 30 kills.

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