New Addition - Possible maker connection - Rettenmaier = "Flatback" Maker

[Thomas Durante]

There's a guy in Germany who sells repro medal bars (sold as such) that uses what looks like a similar catch to the double wire ones shown here, wonder if they are still available even today?

Hi Colin,

I think the catch you show is different than the Deschler catches. If we could see a closeup, I think it would look like this.

This one is from a fake CCC.

Tom

[Jean-Claude]

Probably out in left field again so sorry to waste your time but it looked similar to me anyway... If it is the same, that "double catch" (actually just sort of "sqwished in the middle") is also used on another period TR item that I am aware of.

JC

[BassD]

@ Jean-Claude it is possible to make a closeup from ne hinge?

[Jean-Claude]

@ Jean-Claude it is possible to make a closeup from ne hinge?

Hi BassD

No problem, I'll take better picts and post them for you ASAP but it may be a few days... In the meantime, if you want to see 2 other summer breast eagles with the exact same hinge/catch set up look at posts 2 and 15 on page 6 of "KM metal breast eagles" thread listed on page 2 of "Kriegmarine Uniforms & Equipment Forum" (Sorry I dont know how to post links properly)

Regards

JC

[Norm F]

... In the meantime, if you want to see 2 other summer breast eagles with the exact same hinge/catch set up look at posts 2 and 15 on page 6 of "KM metal breast eagles" thread listed on page 2 of "Kriegmarine Uniforms & Equipment Forum" (Sorry I dont know how to post links properly)

Regards

JC

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=501916&page=6

[Jean-Claude]

Thanks (again) Norm ...You really are a gentleman and a scholar!

Best regards

JC

[Karsten S]

IMO, Tom is right: Alois Rettenmeier. I turned the monogram upsidedown and there are the distinct initials "AR" within a stylised "half moon" swish.

--Best, Ken

Hi Ken,

Very interesting, I think you could be onto something here!

Always hard with stylized logos, but there is definite potential in this mark for Rettenmaeir IMO. Nice work!

Tom

Hi Guys,

Very interesting discussion to follow, and interesting to hear the different perspectives.
IMO it is the forensic approach with the small unique differences in assembly methods, combined with the hardware assembly, that give us the best clue to a possible maker.

Having a good contact to Alois Rettemaier, I can tell you that this logo is not their maker mark, and is unknown to them.

--------

@Basti and Andreas (AK)

You have mentioned homeworkers several time, and I am sure you guys have good documentation, that some manufacturers did use homeworkers as a work source.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that some of your reasoning for not being able to tell the manufacturers apart, is that homeworkers did the soldering part, and therefore there would be so big variation in the way it was done, that you can not use this, as forensic proof, to a possible maker?

Since homeworking is a well know method in Europe at least back to the 1930´s, I have no reason to doubt that this was also a method that could very well have been used by some awards producing companies.

However, it has been more tradition, at least in Denmark, that the homework work would consist more of simple tasks like, packing, bundle things in 10, 50, 100, painting simple things, assembling card box´s etc..
I do not recall home-working, being tasks that would require more costly tools, workbenches etc. and in some degree skilled labour.

In your documentation, what descriptions do you have to the type of work was done by homeworkers? Who used homeworkers and what period is your documentation covering?

KR

Karsten

[Norm F]

Having a good contact to Alois Rettemaier, I can tell you that this logo is not their maker mark, and is unknown to them.
...

KR

Karsten

Hi Karsten,

Any chance you could ask your contact whether he knows if Rettenmaier made combat badges at all (war badges specifically, not crosses, Ostvolk, etc. - either wartime or post-war)? Any info could help.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Karsten,

thanks for the Rettenmaier info ... let's see if Tom will accept it

We have different informations:

It start's around 1940 when the first makers got in trouble because their skilled workers were replaced with "Zwangsarbeiter" and it goes until 1955 (we have documents still going to 1980 but haven't read them so far).

I think Basti has some additional infos in a book about the Gablonz area with description.

[Thomas Durante]

Having a good contact to Alois Rettemaier, I can tell you that this logo is not their maker mark, and is unknown to them.

Hi guys,

Karsten, thanks for this information and adding to this great thread. I don't think anyone really put too much stock in the maker mark, but it was an interesting theory put forth by Ken and certainly worthy of exploration. I don't think any piece of information should be discounted right off the bat, but this kind of confirmation from you and your source at Rettenmaeir is exactly what we need to eliminate it as a possibility.

Just for the record and to completely eliminate the maker mark question, was your source in the company during WW2? Did you show him the mark? Does he have any insight as to what the logo might be?

I have the same question as Norm, can he confirm the production of any combat badges during the war?

Thanks Karsten.

Tom

p.s., Andreas, why wouldn't I accept this information? Anyone reading this thread can clearly see that I am more open minded that you (since I look at hardware and documents, whereas you only look at documents), so you should look in the mirror before casting stones onto others.

[Panzercracker]

For the record, please see these pics where the "AR" in that monogram are located. Tom, I will take a lie detector and pass if I didn't buy a "broken stem" in pristine condition, with that mark from Gailen about 13yrs ago. --And I could care less what someone else has to say quite frankly. Take a good look at the L59 marked cross 1st Class, and then Tom brings in a bronze IAB, with hardware associated to Rettenmeier. That's not one, not two, but three connectors and that should be enough!

--Ken

[Thomas Durante]

For the record, please see these pics where the "AR" in that monogram are located. Tom, I will take a lie detector and pass if I didn't buy a "broken stem" in pristine condition, with that mark from Gailen about 13yrs ago. --And I could care less what someone else has to say quite frankly.

--Ken

Ken, no one is disputing that this mark was found on a broken stem IAB. But that mark could have been put on by anyone, at anytime prior to you buying it. All Karsten is confirming is that the mark was shown to someone that works at Rettenmeir and they don't recognize the mark.

Personally, I would want some more information on the contact, but I think it is huge strike against the mark being attributed to Rettenmaier based on this information from Karsten IMO.

Tom

[Panzercracker]

Not a chance. Why? The one that you see below comes from a very worn "screwback" piece sold by SVM a couple years ago already, and I can tell you, the frosting was on the "inside" of the logo --the one, I bought off Gailen (13-14yrs ago). Anyway, take a look at the halfmoon on the L/59 cross in these pics and tell me that's a "co-incidence"?? I agree with you Tom, with most that you've written thus far, but....

--Ken

Ken, no one is disputing that this mark was found on a broken stem IAB. But that mark could have been put on by anyone, at anytime prior to you buying it. All Karsten is confirming is that the mark was shown to someone that works at Rettenmeir and they don't recognize the mark.

Personally, I would want some more information on the contact, but I think it is huge strike against the mark being attributed to Rettenmaier based on this information from Karsten IMO.

Tom

[Panzercracker]

...and the third connector. Thank you Tom.

--Ken

[Karsten S]

Hi Tom,

The person did not work there during the war, but if any should know, it most be him.
I don´t see any reason for them to hide this info, because as you know, they added the L/59 to our membership pin´s

On the same hand I agree with you, that there should always be the consideration room for error.

Asking about wartime production, is always a delicate matter for companies that produced for the TR. If I will get the chance I will ask, but it will have to be at the correct moment.

@Andreas,
I think it is quite essential to know what type of work they did as homeworkers, before we conclude anything from this info.
As I said earlier, I can not see housewives sitting at home with soldering equipment etc. and at the same time keeping a home. Packing, small painting etc. IMO this is much more plausible IMO, but of course reality sometimes exceeds imagination. But I think we will need proof, before we can use home working as an argument in this discussion.

On the image below you see a wartime photo of a worker soldering EK´s. This soldering tool is gas-supplied, and for sure not suited for homework.

When it comes to forced labour, I can not see anything that would prevent them for doing just as good job, as a normal german workforce? Maybe a few skilled processes like graveur´s needed special skill, but that would neither have been done by homeworkers?
I don´t see factories emptying the building of all the soldering tool and give it to families that did it to make an extra income, and then at the same time have forced labour as workforce inside the manufacturer plant, to do what?

KR

Karsten