New Addition - Possible maker connection - Rettenmaier = "Flatback" Maker

[Norm F]

@Basti

Let's look at some forensic evidence if you are an unmarked Goethe Type 1.4711.

I don't think Basti's writing is full of Sturm und Drang. And besides, Basti is still in his original wrapping and comes with good provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

I don't think Basti's writing is full of Sturm und Drang. And besides, Basti is still in his original wrapping and comes with good provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm, this is the part where i have to disagree knowing the Basti variant for years ....

[Karsten S]

Hi Karsten,

I was just thinking, I don't doubt your contact's word at all on that mystery logo but a lot of years have gone by so I was wondering if your contact was aware of the wide variety of bizarre markings that are known on the Rettenmaier marked EK1s as shown here. It occurs to me that if any or all of these strange markings were unknown to him than it's possible there are other old Rettenmaier mystical markings outside of his experience?

Best regards,
---Norm

(Thanks to 5tefan's EK1 reference website for many of these images.)

Hi Norm,

Can´t say, but he is our best choice.

@Basti,

Indeed very funny.
I know that Deumer was close to getting out of business, but we also both know why, so not really someone to compare with. If I remember correct, your good friend at the Lüdenscheid City Archive, told that Deumer did not use forced labour, and I also seem to remember that it was written somewhere, but I am not sure.



Basti, just so we don´t forget the questions that I asked you, before we distract ourselves:


1. Please show the documentation or give reference to what knowledge we have to what kind of work was done by homeworkers

2. You seem to say that soldering is a very complicated process. What makes you say that, and what step of the soldering work makes it impossible for a forced labour to execute this?

3. I don´t see how would a homeworker be better at soldering at home, than a forced laborer at the factory ?



Thanks

Best Regards

Karsten

[Norm F]

Hi Karsten,

I was just thinking, I don't doubt your contact's word at all on that mystery logo but a lot of years have gone by so I was wondering if your contact was aware of the wide variety of bizarre markings that are known on the Rettenmaier marked EK1s as shown here. It occurs to me that if any or all of these strange markings were unknown to him than it's possible there are other old Rettenmaier mystical markings outside of his experience?

Hi Norm,

Can´t say, but he is our best choice.
...
Best Regards

Karsten

Hi Karsten,

I don't mean to belabor the point, but I just meant perhaps (when the time is convenient) you could ask your contact for any comment he might have about the variety of odd markings on the EK1s? It's obvious the cryptic "AR" (or whatever you want to call it) isn't a standard Rettenmaier maker mark, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that it could be another mystical stamp used rarely in the factory like the other peculiar marks (diamond, triangle, crescent, three dots, etc.). Might be worth pursuing a bit further.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Karsten S]

Hi Norm,

I can only agree with you. He might have been missings the varity of mm, and thereby this in question. What I meant to say, The answer here gave, was what was the best of his ability, and I would be surprised if he did not ask arround or looked into the material they have, but that does not mean that he could have missed something. There is no way to know. Sorry, that is the best I can do.

KR

Karsten

[Norm F]

Hi Norm,

I can only agree with you. He might have been missings the varity of mm, and thereby this in question. What I meant to say, The answer here gave, was what was the best of his ability, and I would be surprised if he did not ask arround or looked into the material they have, but that does not mean that he could have missed something. There is no way to know. Sorry, that is the best I can do.

KR

Karsten

I understand Karsten. But it would be still be useful to know if he was aware of all those marks on the EK1s as well. If he were well aware of all of those random marks like the three dots, diamond, swirl, etc.) then it would be quite significant that only the so-called "AR" is unknown. But if he were equally unaware of some of those EK1 obscure marks then I'm still willing to keep open at least the possibility that the mark was Rettenmaier's. See what I mean?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Karsten S]

I understand Karsten. But it would be still be useful to know if he was aware of all those marks on the EK1s as well. If he were well aware of all of those random marks like the three dots, diamond, swirl, etc.) then it would be quite significant that only the so-called "AR" is unknown. But if he were equally unaware of some of those EK1 obscure marks then I'm still willing to keep open at least the possibility that the mark was Rettenmaier's. See what I mean?

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi Norm,
I see what you mean and I would presume he knows them, but I will ask if he knows the ones that you presented here, and we will see what he answers.

KR

Karsten

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Karsten, I am sure this is probably the first question you asked them, but did they happen to have any period catalogs from the war? Any clue on if they specifically produced IABs during the war, or happen to mention anything else they may have made?

Thanks

p.s., Basti, if it turns out Rettenmaier is the maker of this IAB, then I think we should get to hear one of your poems.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

p.s., Basti, if it turns out Rettenmaier is the maker of this IAB, then I think we should get to hear one of your poems.

Tom

I'm quite sure you won't her a poem of him ...

[Andreas Klein]

If I remember correct, your good friend at the Lüdenscheid City Archive, told that Deumer did not use forced labour, and I also seem to remember that it was written somewhere, but I am not sure.

Hi Karsten,

indeed he did .... and that was logical due to the simple reason: "homeworkers" are not "forced labour" and having enough homeworkers there was no need to use forced labours.

[BassD]

Hi Karsten,

will answers your questions. But first it is important to know how the systems works. And when i read your questions i see that you does'nt know that. That happened when you only look at "the badge" but not notice the conditions of the time, how they work and the special relationsships between "worker - firm and firm - firm. Hope that my english is good enough to show what i mean. But we can also discuss in german, easier for me So here we go...

1. Gablonz
In German there is a term "Schwarzarbeiter" in modern times this mean a man that works and pay no taxes. In early times it means something other. This Schwarzarbeiter gets unfinished components like wire and hinges and fixed them togehter. His order was to give them the fix form. With soldering, his job was done and delievered the unfinished pieces to the firm, the firm bring the finish on it. With the soldering the pieces often get a black colouring... the reason for the term "Schwarzarbeiter" (black worker)
The big advantage for the foreman,master, firm is that he has a slim production line, he must not do everything by himself. Something that you today often find in modern productions processes. In 1898 this homeworks organized themself in a association. You see this is not a thing only a few workers do, there are a lot of workers in Gablonz that work as a homeworker

2. Idar-Oberstein
similar as in Gablanz. But there you have also Werkzeugmachereien and Stahlgraveuerbetriebe (sorry for german terms, don't know how it was in english) who works from home for other bigger firms.

3. Pforzheim
same like in Gablonz and Idar-Oberstein

Yes i can read your thoughts these are all areas that makes jewellery. But a lot of these firms make during the war badges. Think that is something you can agree with me. So do you think you change the kind of production process totally and don't use the approved methods? For a homeworker it doesn't matter if he fixed and soldered a jewellery or a war badge

4. Last but not least we have Lüdenscheid
Think the most collectors will agree that this is the city of all cities when it comes to produce awards. In Lüdenscheid you have something that is called "The System Lüdenscheid" That has something to do with the housing of the workers, the size of a company, the space you have in Lüdenscheid and this are reasons why they work how they work. When i rember right, you visit Lüdenscheid. Than you know what i mean. There are no big firms, but a lot of small firms in small houses. It was unusual e.g in cities like Essen in the ruhr area, that a worker has his own house where he can work. But in Lüdenscheid it was usual. And so the worker has the possibility to work at home for other firms. Also it was usual that a firm give a part of orders to other firms when it was a big order. And that was a very characteristic for Lüdenscheid. The firms have no real core workers that works over the years for one firm. So with the connection from social, political and economic points between workers and firms and the equality of the products there are no real bordes. Whatever component of a product one of the Lüdenscheid firms could not produce… one of his neighbours could do it. And that was a very big advantage of the „System Lüdenscheid“ it makes them very flexible but they did not must have the maschines, the workers and so on. So they could deliever a variety of products but must not have the all by themselves (maschines, knowledge and very important… the money to buy all this) i could write a lot of more about the „System Lüdenscheid“ but i hope that shows you want i mean.

Please read: Simon, S. 117, Ralf Stremmel, Lüdenscheid im Kaiserreich, ein Model des Fortschritts? Beobachtungen bürgerlicher Sozialreformer

(if you need more what you could read let me know)


To your 2nd question
Soldering was a complicated process. I am sure you, Tom and a lot of other people can do it. But like all others things…on which level? In the book about the Gablonzer firms is a short history of the solderings. How important it was shows one of the first two sentences…

"...die wichtigste Tätigkeit des Schmuckarbeiters ist das Löten, ganz gleich ob er in edlen oder unedlen Metall arbeitet. Ja das Löten von Massenartikeln verlangt noch eine größere Umsicht als das Löten der einzelnen Stücke des Gold- und Silberarbeiters… " (maybe someone can translate it)

and for this you need qualified workers and not a forcred labor somewhere from Russia wo never makes this kind of job. Sure you can argue that jewellery is not the same like badges… but if the steps of production are not simillar… how could so many firmst that produce jewellery in Pforzheim, Idar-Oberstein and Gablonz produce war badges? You can not believable say the work of badges production is totally different and that they make the dies, galvanic and other things in a totally new way. … but with „the badge“ in your hand you and the other forensic guys whants told me that… and than we have a point I wrote some posts earliers... to find the least common denominator ist very hard.

3nd question
Read the text about the “System Lüdenscheid” again, maybe this answer your question. The home worker was not the not qualified worker, he was the specialist because the firm can or will not do this job for several reasons. And I think it was not necessary to explain the compare between a qualified worker and a forced labourer


And about Deumer… yes we can it compare. Because it shows in a very easy way that there are not so many workers out there. And for me it was a very easy… no (qualified) workers , no chance to produce… something that S&L, Souval (the letter Andreas show), Eugen Schmidhäußler and some more firms wrote to the Präsidialkanzlei…

So but now enough from me… up to you to make the counterproof for the things I wrote. I can proof it.

[Norm F]

Thanks Basti, this is all very interesting and useful information and provides a nice historical context for the collector. I think we knew much of it from you and Andreas before and lack only the source descriptions, but it's nice to see it summarized in one posting. It sounds like the home workers mostly attached hardware and were not involved in the stamping, deburring and finishing of the manufacturer's products.

But sadly, there's still a strange undertone of dismissal of the process of badge forensics which often inhibits our progress as a group. Surely a historian who studies documents and interviews witnesses would never categorically discount any archeaological finds from an historic site and the study of those artifacts themselves. Instead he would combine those findings within a greater context and cross-reference them to arrive at a more complete understanding. To start with the premise: "A maker can never be known without an original document, and studying a badge closely is useless." is an inexcusably narrow view for any academic. Now, perhaps you don't really feel that way and only exaggerate for the purposes of emphasizing the importance of your work (which is excellent by the way), and perhaps the language barrier sometimes creates misunderstanding, but the way in which you and Andreas often completely dismiss and denigrate the study of the badges themselves is counterproductive to the hobby.

Mistakes will be made, and the process of study and discussion is ongoing, but nevertheless real strides have been made in recognizing badges from the same die set or different die sets, bearing setups which appear with certain patterns of use, which combined with other circumstantial and historical evidence can suggest a particular manufacturer. Some of these findings fit nicely with the possibility of home workers attaching similar hardware to two maker's products while other times there is no overlap at all between makers' products in the same city, suggesting different workers or different instructions to those workers. It's all useful information.

It's indispensable having you and Andreas on the team...but it is a team approach.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BassD]

@ Norm

sent you a pn in a few minutes

edit says: Norm we are not totally different you will see. Normaly i call would prefer a telephone call than writing in the internet. So often something could be misinterpreted.

[Karsten S]

Hi Basti,

Very interesting reading, and I see some good argues. I will reply to you, just need to ask you:

Do you have documentation of what exact work the homeworkers did do for the manufacturers?

When you say not small companies, do you then still believe that Berg & Nolte was a small company and that St&L´s production was in the basement of the old villa?

KR

Karsten

[BassD]

i am not at home today and the next days. so i can not make a scan of the page... but here is the text

... Der Schwarzarbeiter erhält vom Meister die Rohbestandteile, die zur Herstellung des Schmuckstückes notwendig sind, wie Fassungen für die Steine (Kessel), Pressungen, Draht, Scharniere etc. zugewiesen. Seine Aufgabe ist es nun, nach einem gegebenen Muster aus den Bestandteilen durch Zusammenlöten den Schmuck die vorgegebene feste Form zu geben.

i think you can transfer it to the workers who works for S&L or other firms. I have no reason to believe that what function properly to the jewellery does not function properly for the badge production. A littele side note. The firm from which Andreas shows the catches told us that they must finish the badges for the firms who produce the badges. They have sample boards how they should finish it. Somehting that is the same i wrote above. (in 1960 or 1970th years a visitor from England bought all these sample boards)

at the moment i do more reasearch about such firms that are supplier for firms like S&L and other.

Must check my files when i am hat home about Berg & Nolte and S&L.