heer flak badge

[Philippe DB]

Dear Prorege,

That's an observation I also made but didn't want to post because the pics were not very clear and I wasn't 100% sure

KR
Philippe

[Mark S.]

Phillipe, youre right, the presented badges are not all the same. I intended to try and sort them out, but as I looked harder at each one, I started noticing differences that either could or could not be related within each badge. At this point, trying to come to any kind of a theory with the pictures provided is at best inconclusive, and is nothing but guesswork. We have come to the point where we need some hands on comparisons, where we would be able to dial in certain details, and not just the eagle head.

I am seeing some rather distinct similarities between Craigs badge, your badge, and the Souval (copy or real? more on that later). I am not saying any of these badges are fakes, just that they share some rather striking common features. I do however, agree with Frank and his assesment of the badge DaveJ posted, and have personal reservations regarding any semi hollow back flak badges. But thats a topic for another day.

R.E. the Souval badges; I also am aware of the round letter/angled letter controversy, and I have yet to hear an argument from either camp that convinces me. Real Souval sub badges have rounded letters, right? I am sure that the theory is based on fact, but for which badges? I know that all the fake Souvals with the weird postwar catch have round letters, which is quite likely where this came about.

Supposedly, the obverse dies were left intact for Souval to make copies from, it was the reverses that were destroyed (thus explaining the different catches, etc. With that in mind, it isnt too much of a stretch to compare obverse details of a Souval badge. With out one of each to compare with though, I am still open on this topic (and have no intentions of ever buying a Souval badge)

[prorege1]

R.S. markings

Just a brief quote from Angolia's 1976 ''For Fuhrer and Fatherland'' concerning the R.S. marking. The quote reads ''The war time logo had angular curves rather than rounded curves. Additionally the war-time mark measured only 3mm high rather than the 4mm for the post war example''.

[Jan Arne S]

Flak Badge

Hi Guys !
Here is better pics of my Heeres Flakbadge R.S .
I buyed this badge on a internett auction for some years ago , and I know nothing about the history on this badge .
Think this is the same badge that is use in this thread .

Jan Arne

[Jan Arne S]

Back of badge .
Back of badge are slightly concave , like the back of my HSF by Rudolf Souval . The HSF has also "round" R and S , and that badge has been in Norway since the war ended .

Jan Arne

[Mark S.]

Re: R.S. markings

Originally posted by prorege1
Just a brief quote from Angolia's 1976 ''For Fuhrer and Fatherland'' concerning the R.S. marking. The quote reads ''The war time logo had angular curves rather than rounded curves.

Well, I dont know where he says this, but it certainly isnt in the Heer flak badge section.

Or the Ballon badge section..

Or the numbered Luft Ground Assault badge section...

Or the Luft Tank Battle badge section...

Or the Numbered Luft tank battle badge section....

Good book, especially for 1976, but hardly the gospel truth.

(I looked it up, and it is in the back of the book under the section dealing with maker marks, (a few pages after his incomplete and error filled LDO list, which is actually Prasi numbers) and Angolia makes no provisions that this applies to all RS marked badges. Since 1976, we have come to find out that there are exceptions to this rule. I have no idea if he addended this in later editions)

[Philippe DB]

Hi guys,

Angolia on RS in his last edition 'augst 89, page 444 chapter "Postwar Production"

Quote

"Probably the most often encountered badge is the one bearing the proof mark "L/58" "R.S. or Rudolf Souval -- all original marks used by the firm of Rudolf Souval of Vienna Austria. So, Where does one draw the line from original to copy? An L/58 mark in conjunction with some other identifier --epoxy glue for example, would indicate post war production. There is a distinct difference
between the war-time "R.S." proof mark and that used after the war. The war-logo had angular curves rather than rounded curves. Additionally the war-time mark measured only 3mm high rather than the 4mm for the post war example''.

Not very conclusive but that is what the men had to say in '89.

KR
Philippe

[Mark S.]

...exactly as written in '76.

[Philippe DB]

Hi guys,

Follow up question. Is there a good way to recognize the use of epoxy glue?

I'm getting worried now. I always thought the traces arround the hinge on my badge were remains of the finish. Is it possible that these are traces left by epoxy glue.

Arne any idea what the white traces arround your catch are?

Philippe

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

Observations

Hi Jan,
Sorry this is indeed your pic, as advised I got it from Mike's site.

I still think that mine is from the same die as yours, but have observed that your seems to have a really hooked beak compared to mine but that it doesnt seem to be part of the beak, sort off like it is a left over bit of metal ?? You can see from the back that it is really hooked but from the front it looks a bit funny.
But apart from that you can see the jawline is the same the eye socket is the same the feathers on the legs etc.

moving down to the breech you can clearly see that the "nipples" as Yuri put it are the same. On Jan's pic you can see the last circle clearly is the same as on mine, also the "T" on the breech & as said the alignment wheels are a dead give away.

The catch is slightly different they are both set up in nearly the same way but the hinge plate on mine has square edges, Jan has rounded. I cant really see on Jan's wether the catch is directly attaced to the badge as mine is or wether it is attached to a plate & then the the badge. Perhaps Jan could advise.

Also Jan's eagles wing is touching the barrell whereas mine doesnt but perhaps that could be due to hand finishing ??

Jan is yours diestruck does it have shear marks ? & then file marks. Also what is it made from is it zinc etc. Have you weighed yours etc it would be interesting if it weighed about the same as mine.

FYI I sent my comparision pics to Detlev & he stated that an RS marked badge is hard to find & that yours looked good to him. He couldnt comment on mine from the photos I may send mine to him if he agrees for"hand on" analysis.

Phillipe I agree I have never agreed that your badge & mine were similar. The head is the obvious difference but also the aglinement wheels & the circles under the breech.
As stated I firmly beleive that my unmarked is the same as Jans. The question is when was it made post war etc ??

Mark you mentioned the telltale catches of post war Souvals have you or can you get pics of these. I have never seen these as they were before my time in collecting ( only been at it seriously for 2 years ).

The way the catch is set up on mine has anyone similar examples of war time badges. I note that the Juncker Flak badges also have the catch soldered directly to the badge. Is this common or not as most badges I have seen have the catch pin soldered to a plate & then onto the badge.
Regards

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Craig !
No problem with using my pics , when it is for research and compare with other badges .

Jan Arne

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Guys !
I had an accident on work today .
Tree fingers on right hand broken in outer "articular" . Smashed between to iron construction . Has been in hospital today and shall back on wedensday , so I have to be short .
Badge is made of zink , and catch is monted on a small plate and plate to the badge .

Jan Arne

[Philippe DB]

Dear Jan,

When will you ever learn. Stop trying to fake those badges yourself much to dangerous .

No, all kidding apart I wich you a fast and good recovery.

Kind regards
Philippe

[Gordon Williamson]

Craig,

Here is one of the postwar Souval catches you were asking about



Fabricated from a single flat piece of metal with one long strip bent up to form the hook.

As to the R.S. markings, as Mark has suggested, Angolia's book is fundamentally inaccurate on this. There is absolutely no doubt that they used both the round and angular letter forms on their wartime pieces. Mind you, I have seen fakes with both types too, so the mark alone is of absolutely no use in determining originality.

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

Thanks

Gordon for those pics, have you ever seen a catch system like the one on my badge where is directly attached to a badge ??
Jan - hope you get better Ouch !!!