Jump smock eagles

[Willi Z.]

Jan, not all those eagles you are referring to are in a "subdued" thread. Personally, I think we collectors are drawing too many incorrect conclusions regarding what we consider to be "subdued". Yes, on smocks, HBTs jackets, GD jackets, Fliegerblusen, etc we encounter eagles (throughtout the war I might add) which have "subdued" colors of thread. Heck, you even see darker colors of thread on pre-war insignia. Some of the latest issue smocks still have white eagles, some have nice green eagles, some have darker gray eagles. We all know how I feel about drawing conclusions based on observing a statistically invalid sample of original uniforms.

Here are eagles similair to what you posted on the right in several variations, as compared to genuine proven smocks eagles, like the one John posted, on the left side. We know the ones on the right are considered by most to be very late war, yet note the variations in the color of the thread used to sew the eagles. Why are some not "subdued"?

[Willi Z.]

Jan, I am not sure I understand your point. These are all my eagles and they are all smock eagles.

Hi John
It´s of cause harder to judge, when scamartists like the one Willi´s told us about blurring the pictures at the same time, so we still have to look for other exambles to know for sure.

Here is the cutoff I´m talking about.
Is it a jump smock cutoff or a FD Jacket cut off?

[Jan43]

Hi Willi
I too have noticed that even earlier eagles could be more gray that later same type pattern eagles, f.ex. as in the case with the Early GM pattern which are gray, and the later GM that are white. And I think you´re right a long way about this, BUT I´m of the oppinion that the very subdued ones isn´t just a fashion statement from the maker but actually made as Subdued eagles made for camoflage purposes, and these as far as I know never turn up on flightjackets or flieger blouses, but only on Smocks.(on outher clothing)
If you have other intells please let us see it.
And the very subdued eagle of "mine" I consider one of these types.

The other point I was trying to invetigate with your cutoff smock piece, is another discussion I didn´t go further with as there seemed to be no reaction from others, so lets save that for a later time.

Best jan

[Jan43]

Willi
In late 44, and start 45 many if not most jumpsmocks seems to switch to what only could be considered to subdued breast eagles compared to any other time in the war, I´m sure you would agree that these are made subdued for camoflage purposes...don´t you?

Best Jan

[John Hodgin]

Willi
In late 44, and start 45 many if not most jumpsmocks seems to switch to what only could be considered to subdued breast eagles compared to any other time in the war, I´m sure you would agree that these are made subdued for camoflage purposes...don´t you?

Best Jan

Yes Jan, of course subdued eagles were for camouflage. However, as we have all observed, smock manufacturers used the eagles they had on hand, without any care to whether the eagles were white or subdued. And this is precisely why certain eagles are attributed to certain manufactures, the eagles are what they had in stock. And to illustrate Willi's point, here is a late war smock with a white eagle.

[John Hodgin]

Another wool backed eagle Jan, please note the thread and look of the zigzag sewing.

[Willi Z.]

I agree the green eagles we encounter are subdued. I also agree that some eagles can be attributed to certain manufacturers. I would also agree that one smock manufacturer used quite a few green subdued eagles.

What % we are talking about is another matter.

[Jan43]

Hi John and Willi
I´m glad we agree about this.
I totally agree with everything you´re saying, its the same matter with parachutes and Green Helmet decals, they used what they had, and some happens to have and upgrade to the latest development parts, which some Makers(of eagles) sometime in late 44 evolved their eagle pattern to a subdued version. Some Makers(of eagles) keep their eagle pattern normal gray or white until the end.

A quick look on maker which switch to subdued eagles in late 44/start 45 are,
Brandenburg Kleiderfabrik -/0042 on their okt.44 dated thin green subdued(John´s). If there is one you can be sure there are more in this batch of smocks.
Fritz Habelt -/0001 on their 45 dated Green Hbt subdued.(The count on these are now 7 out of 7 with originals eagles which all are clearly subdued green hbt eagles with same eagle pattern).
Polish firm Rbnr 0/1337/0015 thin green subdued, seems to be consisdent from okt. 44-dec 44.
Several other firms which are undated and some unmarked start using the thin green eagles probably sometime in the later part of 44.

(And yes if they ran out of the subdued version they would for sure use white or gray, BUT I think it´s safe to say that these makers at this time now had a prefference of using the subdued version if they had any)

The reason why we can say with certainty that these were infact made with the purpose for camouflage, is the fact that at the exact same time we see the Subdued green Helmet decal starts turning up, which we know for sure and without any doubt are made for camouflage purposes, which together with the subdued breast eagles of cause tell the story that they were starting to pay attention to the details on the uniform, in order to get the perfect camouflage effect.

Back to the Cutoff in question. I can also see that the zigzagging doesn´t live up to the standards of what we normally see, and I would be a fool to say that this is for sure original after what Willi told us fakers are willing to do, so I too will have to wait and see what turns up in the future, to be more certain.
I noticed the fabric is especially worn just over the eagle´ wing to the right, which could be due the smocks wearer´s right thump reaching for the pocket over time, but then again it could also be the faker´s trying to erase stitchmarks or something else??.

Best Jan

[John Hodgin]

Another eagle for you Jan, the same type grey back eagle I posted earlier, this time cut from a Sumpf in the pattern this particular eagle is often found on.

And a detail of the stitching, to further illustrate my point on the eagle you posted.

[John Hodgin]

And Steve, this humble cut eagle is important for another reason.

[Mike Davis]

Yes indeed, a revealing and important detail...

[Jan43]

??I´m not entirely sure what point you still are advocating for John, as I´ve already admitted that the zigzag pattern isn´t in the top like we many times see. But you´re also using exambles which are in the other end than the cutoff.(small zigzag, thicker thread, thicker eaglebacking)

Take a look at this what IMO is a very rare combination;
a thin green eagle on a green 4 pocket LW tunic;
http://www.mgnmilitaria.com/engine/i...rman+Militaria

Notice the sewpattern is much closer in style as the cutoff
Here side by side comprarison.


and backsides

[John Hodgin]

I know that four pocket tunic Jan, I found it at a Max. The zig zag sewing is certainly more similar to the sewing on your eagle.

[Jan43]

Thanks for that, and I will give you that I too aren´t conviced about the stitching myself, just trying to give it a fair chance.

To the other discussion about what goes on what, here´s an other fairly rare examble compared to all other flight jacket eagles I have on file.
A "jump smock eagle " on a light flight jacket.(The same type eagle as the one you just showed John). Best Jan

[SMP]

Jan, that last eagle isn't a smock eagle. I am willing to bet it is smaller, too.

I used to own one