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**Hundestaffel** · 01-10-2012, 01:52 PM

QUOTE: However, I don't think the entry Herr Hundestaffel has been referring to is the one for this guy's lower back warts Have a look at entry number 5 dated 1.May 1945 on page 3:

3./Panzerjagd-Rgt. G.D.

This is exactly the entry that I was referring to....definitely Icing on the Cake...

"Hundestaffel"

**Gary T** · 01-10-2012, 02:20 PM

A small point but when tanks are concerned isn't 'Panzer Führer' tank driver not commander? I can vaguely remember something about his from years ago.

Otherwise why have a separate notation for 'Panzer Kommandant' and none for 'Panzer Fahrer' (the scans have gone now though)?

**Edward** · 01-10-2012, 06:02 PM

The quickest here and gone sale that day had to have been the Bandenkampf in Bronze entry Soldbuch to a guy in a Jäger Regiment. Sold in seconds!!!

That was a really nice one too. Would be great to see if the new owner will share.

**Panzer Rob** · 01-10-2012, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

A small point but when tanks are concerned isn't 'Panzer Führer' tank driver not commander? I can vaguely remember something about his from years ago.

Otherwise why have a separate notation for 'Panzer Kommandant' and none for 'Panzer Fahrer' (the scans have gone now though)?

Gary,

Do you by any chance happen to have a link to that discussion?

Here's the document I believe you were referring to (please see below). Interesting that there's no Panzer Fahrer listed under "Panzer" but both Panzer Führer and Panzer Fahrer are listed for "Pz-Aufkl." and "Pz.Jäg"

As I understand it, Panzer drivers were referred to as "Kraftwagenfahrer für gepanzert Kraftwagen" or "Panzer Fahrer" and Panzer commanders as "Panzer Führer" or "Panzer Kommandant." I've checked some of my German-language reference material and I see Panzer drivers referred to as "Panzer Fahrer" or just "Fahrer" and commanders referred to as both "Panzer Führer" and "Panzer Kommandant." I can't seem to find any reference to suggest that "Panzer Führer" meant "driver" and I don't recall ever seeing/reading this, but I'd really appreciate seeing some period documentation if this was in fact the case.

Rob

Attached Files

doc.jpg (169.1 KB, 386 views)

**Panzer Rob** · 01-10-2012, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Erwin L

So congrats Rob

enjoy your grouping and then put it safe in the safe

Erwin

Thanks buddy! A hell of a lot safer in the safe than a cardboard shoe box

Rob

**Erwin L** · 01-11-2012, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Hundestaffel

I started this thread the moment I saw the status of this grouping going from "Hold" to "Sold" - who purchased it is of absolutely no concern to me (although I have the feeling others don't exactly feel the same way about this). I must admit though, I had a good chuckle or three seeing the same fellows at the bottom of the sales thread furiously checking in over and over (and over) again - drool on their computer screen but dust in their wallets. Clearly the purchaser (revealed as Robert Johnson) knew exactly what he was looking at and wasted no time in securing a wonderful grouping.

"Hundestaffel"

Thanks for the explanation. Like i said before i was wrong. So my apoligy again

. I really thought you opened the thread for Rob. I can imagine it must be fun to see how other people react and are guessing who the lucky buyer could be and what kind of once in a lifetime they missed. I can imagine the excitement around the deal. Like am i the first or is somebody faster. A bit like the last seconds just before an ebay auction ends which you're bidding on. I have sweat a lot of times in the end. I can feel the excitement again thinking of the times. In the last years i have accept that it isn't possible to have it all and i'm glad with the little things i have. The extra finds are a bonus. I can live with the things that i missed on the estand, dealer sites etc.

It wouldn't be my first thought to open a thread about if it wasn't my collecting interest but good to bring it under the attention with a puzzle. I love to puzzle and in this case i have learnt a bit more about collecting documents and the contents from the documents. So in this case a huge thank you

Best regards

Erwin

**Erwin L** · 01-11-2012, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Thanks buddy! A hell of a lot safer in the safe than a cardboard shoe box

Rob

Rob

I think the bankers are the biggest Criminals (if i may think loud). Look what troubles they have caused in the last years.

I think most documents have been in shoeboxes for a lot of years before so why change their environment

Althoug i only have to worry that my girlfriend doesn't send back the shoebox to Zalando when she isn't happy

(Web shop for shoes)

Best regards

Erwin

**Gary T** · 01-11-2012, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Gary,

Do you by any chance happen to have a link to that discussion?

Here's the document I believe you were referring to (please see below). Interesting that there's no Panzer Fahrer listed under "Panzer" but both Panzer Führer and Panzer Fahrer are listed for "Pz-Aufkl." and "Pz.Jäg"

As I understand it, Panzer drivers were referred to as "Kraftwagenfahrer für gepanzert Kraftwagen" or "Panzer Fahrer" and Panzer commanders as "Panzer Führer" or "Panzer Kommandant." I've checked some of my German-language reference material and I see Panzer drivers referred to as "Panzer Fahrer" or just "Fahrer" and commanders referred to as both "Panzer Führer" and "Panzer Kommandant." I can't seem to find any reference to suggest that "Panzer Führer" meant "driver" and I don't recall ever seeing/reading this, but I'd really appreciate seeing some period documentation if this was in fact the case.

Rob

Rob,

I'm afraid I don't or at least I can't find it (it may have been pre-WAF on another forum). It was the dual entry of Panzer Führer and Panzer Kommandant in a WP and someone pointed out Panzer Führer was the driver. In later years I noticed that in WP that had a 'Panzer Führer' entry in (and you don't see it that often even in crew books) the rank of the individual (i.e. Gefreiter\Obergefreiter) would suggest this view was correct.

Your document seems to prove this was the case to me and is very interesting for that alone...if Panzer Führer isn't the driver what position under 'Panzer' is? Why have Panzer Kommandant and Panzer Führer on an official training document and no driver position?

It's interesting that Führer and Fahrer are present under the other categories but there is no Pz-Aufkl. Kommandant. Why? I don't have an answer to that but I would tentatively suggest it was because the driver in a tank is the by far the most importnant member - he is far more than a driver acting on instructions from the commander.

I'll see if I can come up with anything else.

Cheers,
Gary.

**Panzer Rob** · 01-11-2012, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Rob,

I'm afraid I don't or at least I can't find it (it may have been pre-WAF on another forum). It was the dual entry of Panzer Führer and Panzer Kommandant in a WP and someone pointed out Panzer Führer was the driver. In later years I noticed that in WP that had a 'Panzer Führer' entry in (and you don't see it that often even in crew books) the rank of the individual (i.e. Gefreiter\Obergefreiter) would suggest this view was correct.

Your document seems to prove this was the case to me and is very interesting for that alone...if Panzer Führer isn't the driver what position under 'Panzer' is? Why have Panzer Kommandant and Panzer Führer on an official training document and no driver position?

It's interesting that Führer and Fahrer are present under the other categories but there is no Pz-Aufkl. Kommandant. Why? I don't have an answer to that but I would tentatively suggest it was because the driver in a tank is the by far the most importnant member - he is far more than a driver acting on instructions from the commander.

I'll see if I can come up with anything else.

Cheers,
Gary.

Gary-

Thanks for the reply and looking forward to seeing any additional info you may be able to come up with. If by some chance you do happen to come across the thread regardless of which forum it's on (if it even still exists!) please post it here.

You raise a good point, one which I admit to having overlooked; there is no "Fahrer" entry under the Panzer section.

I've checked through some of the KStN for Panzer Einheiten I have saved and it seems as though from the beginning of the war through mid/late 1944 the Panzer commander is referred to as "Panzerführer" and from mid/late 1944 onwards, "Panzer Kommandant." The driver is always referred to as "Kraftwagenfahrer für. gp. Kw."

I sold off a lot of my Panzer crew Wehrpässe as I wanted to focus primarily on Soldbücher, but having gone through scans of the ones I have left, while all have entries for gunnery, loader, radio operator and driver training (in which case all include entries for drivers licenses of various grades) I did not see any entries for "Panzer Führer," but none for "Panzer Fahrer," either! I have a few Panzerjäger, schwere-Panzerjäger and Sturmgeschütz Wehrpässe with "Panzerjäger-Führer" and "Fahrer" entries but that doesn't help any!

Interesting that under section II.b (Sonderausbildung, Fahrer-u. techn. Ausb.) of the Ausbildungsnachweis there's no notation that he was issued a Führerschein, and all classes are listed..... although I guess it's possible it could have been accidentally overlooked and never entered?

Like you, I have no explanation as to why there is no "Fahrer" entry and i find it interesting that the other sections list both "Führer" and "Fahrer" - but not "Kommandant!" The commander of a self-propelled Panzerjäger, armored car or halftrack obviously wouldn't't be the driver, same as with a tank... perhaps the importance of the driver in a tank warranted a special title, in which case having some sort of period documentation referencing this would seal the deal for me. Or maybe the "Panzer Führer" entry in the Panzer section is a type-o that made it all the way through to press

Rob

**Hank C.** · 01-11-2012, 10:53 PM

To spare the PM's, I edited out a couple of posts that wandered from the topic at hand. Please keep discussion limited to the grouping.

Thanks
Hank & E-J

**muno11** · 01-14-2012, 01:15 PM

Is there anybody who would share some photos of this grouping (especially of the Portrait-Foto)? I can't see any pictures.

Thanks

Besst regards
muno11

**Panzer Rob** · 01-15-2012, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by muno11 View Post

Is there anybody who would share some photos of this grouping (especially of the Portrait-Foto)? I can't see any pictures.

Thanks

Besst regards
muno11

I haven't had time to scan in the grouping yet but here's the portrait photo... It's about A5 (roughly 8" x 5") in size.

Rob

Attached Files

photo.jpg (51.0 KB, 334 views)

**muno11** · 01-16-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

I haven't had time to scan in the grouping yet but here's the portrait photo... It's about A5 (roughly 8" x 5") in size.

Rob

Thank you Rob!

**Panzer Rob** · 01-21-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by muno11 View Post

Thank you Rob!

No problem

I've been traveling in Europe on business all week and just returned home, but soon I will find some time to make better scans. The set really is fantastic, and judging from the amount of PMs and emails I have received I'd say I'm definitely not the only one who thinks so

Rob

**nonameno** · 01-22-2012, 09:11 AM

Hello Gentlemen,
As further discussion for driver or tank commander, let me say that I have a soldbuch to a guy from PzAbt33/PzR33/PzAbt51 listed as Panzerkommandant V for a Panther and that entry is pre-1944!

I've checked through some of the KStN for Panzer Einheiten I have saved and it seems as though from the beginning of the war through mid/late 1944 the Panzer commander is referred to as "Panzerführer" and from mid/late 1944 onwards, "Panzer Kommandant." The driver is always referred to as "Kraftwagenfahrer für. gp. Kw."

Thank you,
Curtiss

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