"GD" Panzer Grouping on the E-stand...

[Panzer Rob]

Hello Gentlemen,
As further discussion for driver or tank commander, let me say that I have a soldbuch to a guy from PzAbt33/PzR33/PzAbt51 listed as Panzerkommandant V for a Panther and that entry is pre-1944!

Thank you,
Curtiss

Curtiss,

I believe that's the Karl Fried Soldbuch you're referring to, correct? It's interesting yet very unusual (definitely not regulation) to find such an entry in a Soldbuch and I've seen only a handful of examples like this. I'm referencing official Kriegsstärkenachweisungen and I believe the information listed in these is official and correct.

It's still a bit odd that there's no listing for driver on the document, however seeing as how section II.b (Sonderausbildung, Fahrer-u. techn. Ausb.) direclty above is used for driver training/drivers licenses, maybe "Panzerkommandant" stands for "Kompanieführer?" Just speculation on my part of course.......

I'm hoping we can find some definitive official period documentation to clarify exactly which roll "Panzer Führer" stands for on this document. Based on the info contained on the KStNs I'm leaning towards "Panzer Führer" standing for "Panzer Commander" but it would be nice to know for certain.

Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Just wanted to see if perhaps anyone might have any info to add to the discussion regarding the "Panzer Führer" entry on the training document.

Thanks!
Rob

[nonameno]

Hi Rob,
In my opinion, it would relate to 'Driver' vs. Commander, based upon what I have seen in other soldbuchs.
Thank you,
Curtiss

[Panzer Rob]

Hi Rob,
In my opinion, it would relate to 'Driver' vs. Commander, based upon what I have seen in other soldbuchs.
Thank you,
Curtiss

Interesting..... Thanks for your reply, Curtiss. How many of these types of entries have you seen in Soldbücher? Are you basing your opinion on just the entries in these Soldbücher, or have you also seen period documentation with "Panzer Führer" listed as "driver?"

FWIW the image I posted is a scan of a copy of the actual German KStN records which came directly from NARA, and so for now I'm still leaning towards the entry referring to commander; mostly because of the driver training/license section located directly above the Panzer section, but also because in the official KStNs Panzer drivers -- and on this specific KStN document Panther drivers -- are referred to as "Kraftwagenfahrer für. gp. Kw."

I'd love to see some period documentation confirming exactly what it stands for.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us. Hopefully we'll get some more input from other members.

Best,
Rob

[naxos]

I have to agree with Rob - Führer and Fahrer have very different meanings.

A Panzerkommandant has the qualifications of a Panzerführer plus an actual Panzer and crew under his command.

I believe that a Panzerführer is an NCO or Officer in charge of the tank when the Panzerkommandant is absent (for instance on leave).

The difference in the terms Panzerkommandant and Panzerführer is the same as Kompanie-Chef and Kompanieführer, the Kompanie-Chef is the actual commander and the Kompanieführer is the acting commander (Stellvertreter).

To summarize: Every Panzerkommandant is a Panzerführer but not every Panzerführer is a Panzerkommandant.
.

[Gary T]

Like you I would expect, given my knowledge of German, for Panzerführer to mean 'tank leader' and Panzerfahrer to mean tank driver. Certainly in the modern German army they are used like that. But a brief look through German language forums shows Panzerführer is used in a number of ways - tank driver, tank commander and for the likes of Guderian.

However, you have a period document there that clearly shows there was a clear difference between Panzerkommandant and Panzerführer. As I said before there are five crew slots in most German tanks. If the Panzerfuhrer isn't the driver (as in a trained to drive a tank in combat not just someone who has got the licence) then where is he? I certainly don't believe it is some kind of convoluted 'commander but not the real commander' theory.

The fact is Panzerführer is used to denote a tank driver just as lokomotiveführer is used to describe an 'engine driver' not an 'engine leader'.

For example, the award criteria for the Panzerkampfwagenabzeichen says:

Das Panzerkampfwagenabzeichen kann an Offiziere, Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften der Panzereinheiten verliehen werden, die sich ab 1.1.1940 als Panzerkampfwagen- Panzerbefehlswagen-Kommandant, Panzerschütze, Panzerführer, Panzerfunker bei mindestens dreimaligem Einsatz im Gefecht an 3 verschiedenen Kampftagen bewährt haben, wobei sich die Panzerkampfwagen-Besatzung aktiv am Kampf selbst beteiligt haben muss.For example, the award criteria for the Panzerkampfwagenabzeichen says:

Again a period distinction between commander and driver...why have both? This is always translated in every award book there is as being 'tank commanders, tank gunners, tank drivers, radio operators.

It is asked for more period evidence (you already have it in my opinion) but I would turn it the other way. I have seen Richtschütze, Ladeschütze, Panzerkommandant, Panzerfunker and Panzerführer entires in WPs. I don't recall ever seeing a Panzerfahrer entry.

As for the colloquial use of Panzerführer as 'tank driver' a quick google search turns up quite a few (also lots using Panzerfahrer as driver and Panzerführer as tank commander):

For example:

http://www.grenzkommando.de/auszeichnungen-1.html
Allgemeines Klassifizierungsabzeichen der Grenztruppen der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik (1958-90)
Die Klassifizierungsabzeichen (1958) für Panzerführer, Fahrer von Schützenpanzerwagen und Kraftfahrer sowie Funker und Fernschreiber konnten ab 01. April 1961 auch von Angehörigen der Deutschen Grenzpolizei erworben werden.

Why would tank commander be in amongst drivers of APCs and trucks?

http://ww.lalegion.ch/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3781&view=previous
Auch ich wünsche dir viel Erfolg bei deinen Plänen. Ich weiss wovon ich spreche da ich selbst Kraftfahrer war. Hatte alle Führerscheine vom Motorrad über PKW, Bus und LKW ( Schwertransporter) sowie sämtliche Panzerführer-und Pilotenscheine im Panzerregiment.

Why would this guy throw in the fact he had a 'tank commander license' when everything else he mentions is what he was qualified to drive.

http://forum.geizhals.at/t275058,1754455.html
Bin vor kurzem beim BH eingerückt muss mich allerdings schon bald entscheiden ob ich bei der Fernmeldekompanie bleibe oder die Ausbildung zum Panzerführer(ev. auch Fahrer von klein LKW mit B-FS) machen soll.

Again, why would someone be moving from the signals company to tank commander training? And then mention driver training?

And here's an interesting thing from Google Translate (which is quite brilliant, why wasn't it around when I was collecting?). In some circumstances it translates Panzerführer as 'tank commander' but in others 'tank driver'. Put the sentences above in and see...however, you can highlight certain words to see different meanings and yes, Panzerführer is either tank commander or tank driver.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I was told Panzerführer was tank driver in the context of WP entries. Rob's training document has proved this to me this was the case in the Wehrmacht of the 1940s.

[naxos]

Gary,

1. The train-engineer that controls the train is called a Lokführer because he is in charge of the train.

2. The wording of the award is: ... Panzerkampfwagen- oder Panzerbefehlswagenführer, als Panzerschütze, als Panzerfahrer oder als Panzerfunker ...



Does anyone have an original copy of: Merkblatt für Ausbildung und Einsatz der schweren Panzerkompanie Tiger - Berlin : Oberkommando des Heeres, 1943.

There it clearly shows different tactical signs for Panzerführer and Panzerfahrer.




Here is another period text were Panzerführer and Panzerfahrer are mentioned as different positions.

[naxos]

One more period document that refers to Panzerführer as a tank commander.

This is an excerpt from a Divisionsbefehl by Graf von Schwerin, May 1943

[Panzer Rob]

Very interesting info, Naxos. Thanks very much for posting this.

Rob

[Daniele C]

I remember this one, I was first on this one but i passed,

Too bad the soldbuch is denazified like that and the guy wasnt a real fighter and fought only for a couple of months and that was it...ah well Once Rob is happy thats what matters

[Panzer Rob]

I remember this one, I was first on this one but i passed,

Too bad the soldbuch is denazified like that and the guy wasnt a real fighter and fought only for a couple of months and that was it...ah well Once Rob is happy thats what matters

Hi Daniele,

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion with us. While it is of course nice to have lengthy Kampftage lists and lots of awards, I have to say that unlike the SS Soldbuch you recently posted, this guy actually 'did' crew a vehicle (a Panther) and did so in combat, and received an award for doing so I have plenty of Soldbücher to SS and Heer Panzer, StuG, etc. crews with much nicer photos and more impressive lists of awards, but until recently 'nothing' to a Großdeutschland Panzer crew member. I'd much rather have a Großdeutschland SB + WP Panzer crew set with a PAB in silver and smashing black wrapper photo - not to mention the award document - than just a Soldbuch to say an orderly, clerk or support personnel with no awards and no proof he ever fought in any actual combat.

Oh, and according to the seller, this "GD" set has been in his collection for quite some time and it was sold to the very first person who contacted him as soon as it was posted for sale - i.e. there really wasn't an opportunity for anyone to pass on it

Naxos, thanks again for posting that info! Hopefully we'll get some other members opinions on the meaning of "Führer VS Fahrer" on the document being discussed


Rob.

[Daniele C]

uh, yea sure
Yea i passed on it as i was the very first for the reasons i said but Again if you re happy with it thats all that matters so enjoy your soldbuch

[naxos]

Naxos, thanks again for posting that info! Hopefully we'll get some other members opinions on the meaning of "Führer VS Fahrer" on the document being discussed
Rob.

Thanks Rob;

Again I would like to ask: Does anyone have a copy of

"Merkblatt für Ausbildung und Einsatz der schweren Panzerkompanie Tiger" - OKH, 1943

There is clearly shows that a Tiger crew consisted of:

Panzerführer, Richtschütze, Ladeschütze, Panzerfunker and Panzerfahrer.

[Gary T]

Gary,

1. The train-engineer that controls the train is called a Lokführer because he is in charge of the train.

In every hard copy German-English dictionary I have and every dictionary online Lokomotiveführer is Engine Driver.

2. The wording of the award is: ... Panzerkampfwagen- oder Panzerbefehlswagenführer, als Panzerschütze, als Panzerfahrer oder als Panzerfunker ...

Odd, every single online transcript from this award states Panzerführer. It's true they could have all copied it from the original incorrectly (or rather Klietmann did) but I've yet to see one in print saying 'panzerfahrer'.

Does anyone have an original copy of: Merkblatt für Ausbildung und Einsatz der schweren Panzerkompanie Tiger - Berlin : Oberkommando des Heeres, 1943.

There it clearly shows different tactical signs for Panzerführer and Panzerfahrer.




Here is another period text were Panzerführer and Panzerfahrer are mentioned as different positions.

Nowhere have I said panzerfahrer is not a legitimate or oft-used way of describing 'tank driver'. Of course you can find plenty of examples - they are everywhere, and I too saw the Merkblatt. However, your opinion that 'Panzerführer' is not a term that is, or was, used for 'tank driver' is clearly utterly wrong.

I'll say it again - where is the driver position on Rob's document? Why do all the other vehicles have -'fahrer' and '-führer' whereas Panzer does not. You strangely are correct with your guess that 'Panzerführer' was in charge of the vehicle in the absence of the commander - that was the driver's responsibility. He accompanied the vehicle everywhere - even if it was sent back to the werkstatt for repairs he went with it.

[naxos]

In every hard copy German-English dictionary I have and every dictionary online Lokomotiveführer is Engine Driver..

Of course he is!
However, he is also in charge of the moving train, hence Lokomotiveführer

Odd, every single online transcript from this award states Panzerführer. It's true they could have all copied it from the original incorrectly (or rather Klietmann did) but I've yet to see one in print saying 'panzerfahrer'.

Yes, incorrect transcript.

Why do all the other vehicles have -'fahrer' and '-führer' whereas Panzer does not. .

So do Panzer - If you would have taken the time to look at the assembly of the crew in-front of the tank you would have noticed that every Tiger tank has a Führer and Fahrer in its five man crew.

You strangely are correct with your guess that 'Panzerführer' was in charge of the vehicle in the absence of the commander - that was the driver's responsibility. He accompanied the vehicle everywhere - even if it was sent back to the werkstatt for repairs he went with it.

I'm "strangely correct" in all my points regarding this subject.


To make things even more confusing - The German term for driver licence is, as you well know, Führerschein. In this term it is assumed that the driver is also in charge of a vehicle (which of course he most likely is).
However, a distinction between Fahrer (driver) and Führer (leader) had to be made in crewed vehicles since the driver is not necessarily the leader (i.e. commander) of the vehicle.


Gary, I’m not trying to be difficult here, please have another look at the crew assembly configuration.

.