"GD" Panzer Grouping on the E-stand...

[Jochen1000]

I would also go for the 8,8 kwk 43 training. What have we missed?

[Erwin L]

While we're trying to solve some Mysterieus puzzles, I notice something else different also with this unique and rare set. Mr Hundestaffel probably has noticed it also i guess, because he has a nose for it

This time you have to digg deeper

regards

Erwin

[Ian Jewison]

I Battalion, Panzer Regiment Grossdeutschland

The Panther Battalion of the 116th Panzer Division, who were stationed in France, formed at Grafenwöhr, Germany. Their place was taken by I Battalion of Panzer Regiment Grossdeutschland, who were refitting with Panthers. After the landings in Normandy, 116th Panzer Division remained in the Pas de Calais area. By July 20, when they started the move across the Seine and into Normandy to fight against the Allies, the GD Panther battalion had departed the division.

In October 1944, the I Battalion of Panzer Regiment GD returned to the East (incidentally, they had not seen direct combat after the Allied landings in Normandy) but served as part of the Westphalian 6th Panzer Division, not rejoining GD until after the expansion to a Panzer Corps in November 1944.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/panthers.htm

/Ian

[Gary T]

I./ Panzer Regiment GD was replaced in 116. Panzer Division in early July 1944 by I./ Panzer Regiment 24 . The battlion was sent east in July not October where it became the Panther batallion for 6. Panzer Division as previously mentioned.

[Ian Jewison]

Yes Gary, the date October is clearly wrong in the above link as it does not match the Wehrpass!

/Ian

[Gary T]

I go for the warts on the right 'sacral region'.

[Ian Jewison]

I go for the warts on the right 'sacral region'.

You're right there....that's a rare entry!!!

[Panzer Rob]

I go for the warts on the right 'sacral region'.

Uhhh... Gary, that's probably not something you want to admit in public


Rob

[Gary T]

Uhhh... Gary, that's probably not something you want to admit in public


Rob

At least I can keep mine secret unlike this poor guy.

Must have been quite something for them to be noted as a special identifying feature.

[Panzer Rob]

At least I can keep mine secret unlike this poor guy.

Must have been quite something for them to be noted as a special identifying feature.

You know the Germans take being thorough to an entirely new level

Rob

[CWP]

Certainly an extremely rare and special grouping with a lot of appeal. Congratulations to the new owner.

[Panzer Rob]

I was wondering the same thing. It is an interesting little group but it is also crudely denazified and as Erwin says this guy was particularly successful in avoiding the front. Is one more photo of a guy in a wrapper (with special shoulderboards of course!) really everything it takes to make people go crazy on this forum?

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on "crudely denazified." I have seen Soldbücher and Wehrpässe with the entire eagle and swastika completely covered over in black ink, and not just on the cover but also on every page of the ID; swastikas removed by sloppily scribbling them out with pencil, ink or worse - removing them by scratching/cutting them off with a sharp object The small, simple "x" over some of the swastikas on some of the stamps are nowhere near as bad and "crude" as other de-nazification attempts I have seen on other IDs and documents. Furthermore, the denazification of this particular Soldbuch was performed because the soldier continued to use it for another two years while a POW; it's part of the history associated with the Soldbuch. Regardless, it could have been much, much worse


As Edward says, this grouping goes 'way' beyond the fact that the soldier is wearing a wrapper, and I don't see anyone in this thread going "crazy" over the fact that he's simply wearing a wrap. The excitement here is about the fact that this is a Soldbuch and Wehrpass set to a Panther gunner and commander who served in Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" which also happens to be part of a group that includes his PAB in silver award document and a really nice large format portrait photo, not to mention a list of Kampftage and other documents associated with his Panzerführer training

Perhaps you can scan in and post some of your Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" Panzer crew IDs to Panzer commanders with PAB in silver award entries and post them here. Not just the Soldbücher, but all your Pz.Rgt."GD" Soldbuch/Wehrpass sets..... even if it's only a few of them. It makes no difference if the portrait photos attached inside the front cover show the soldier wearing a standard field tunic or black panzer wrap... or if they don't have any photo at all (or even if it has been removed post-war)

Maybe now you are starting to see the point Trevor (Hundestaffel) is making; Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" IDs are extremely scarce and hardly ever turn up for sale. I've been collecting for over six years and have seen only two "Großdeutschland" Panzer/AFV crew IDs with a combat badge and black wrapper photo (know of a third but there is no combat badge entered) and all are locked away in collections where they will probably remain for a very long time. Yes, of course there are more out there, but IDs to "Großdeutschland" Panzer crews like this just do not turn up very often. Add to the fact that this is a 'grouping' which consists of 'both' the Soldbuch and Wehrpass, the PAB in silver award document and a very nice large format photo and it becomes the most complete and impressive Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" Panzer gunner/commander SB/WP/award doc/photo grouping I have personally ever seen.

Regarding the comments about him avoiding the front; I don't think he had much say in where his unit was stationed, when they were engaged in combat and whether or not he had to fight... Matter of fact, his transfer from the supply company to the line unit where he did see combat could put down any "theories" about him trying to avoid combat. Perhaps he requested the transfer? Just speculation of course.

I've seen plenty of Panzer, Panzerjäger and StuG unit Soldbücher to supply/support personnel who never won a single award, or at the most received the KVK.II or KVK.I, but never saw any actual "combat" - yet many of these guys were at or near the front for three, four or more years! Here we have a legit, SB/WP set to a Panther crew member who fought with one of the most famous and high-profile units in all of the Wehrmacht, which is part of a grouping with a beautiful portrait photo and his silver PAB award document. What's not to get excited about??

From my experience you will see ten (or more) Soldbücher with EKI and/or CCC in bronze entries offered for sale for roughly every one Panzer unit Soldbuch with a PAB in silver to a crew member who served in one of the 'regular' divisions - and these are just your 'standard' Panzer-Regiment personnel. It's not often that you have Panzer crew member IDs to Panther crews who served in Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" coming up for sale, so considering how scarce these books are, coupled with the fact that he was a NCO trained as a gunner and commander of a Panther -- in "Großdeutschland" of all units -- I cannot understand why anyone who collects Soldbücher and Wehrpässe would not be excited to see such a set offered for sale.

Pz fuhrer....., 88 kwk 43 ....../richtschutze pz......"panther" ...perhaps

That's a good start, Erwin.

He was trained as a gunner and commander on the Panzer V "Panther" and had at least 4 separate combat engagements while serving in I./Pz.Rgt."Großdeutschland" when it was attached to Pz.Rgt.11 during the second-half of 1944. The combat days listed do not take into account any time he spent crewing/commanding while fighting in a defensive roll, but regardless, the PAB award entry and Kampftage speak for themselves.

However, I don't think the entry Herr Hundestaffel has been referring to is the one for this guy's lower back warts Have a look at entry number 5 dated 1.May 1945 on page 3:


3./Panzerjagd-Rgt. G.D.

Certainly an extremely rare and special grouping with a lot of appeal. Congratulations to the new owner.

Thank You It should be here tomorrow

Rob

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Rob, great score, Steve

[Jochen1000]

Dear Rob,

well, thank you very much for that explanation!

Let's skip the part with the denazification and go directly to the part which counts:

Perhaps you can scan in and post some of your Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" Panzer crew IDs to Panzer commanders with PAB in silver award entries and post them here.

No Rob, I cannot and no Rob I don't have to either. Because this is a discussion forum and no one told me that I have to own a GD-group in order to talk about a GD-group
I have now being called jealous, of course the next thing is: do you have anything comparable? If not - you better be quiet (unless I say that everything is fantastic - then I am of course
allowed to say something). I tell you what comes next if I go on. The next thing will be that someone just tells me that I am either stupid or ignorant (or both) if I don't see why this is a fantastic group.

But to me it just is what it is. A soldbuch to a Panzer guy in an intersting unit who saw some combat (but not too much). In the end he was with 3./Panzerjagd-Rgt. G.D.? So what?

But let us agree that we simply don't agree here. I know that this group is soon with a guy who appreciates having it and that is not a bad thing after all. And you will get your responses of the "another-nice-one-Rob" type - which is good.
But you know, when you contacted me privately yesterday and I asked you whether this is the best piece in your collection - your answer was: No, of course not. That is also my opinion - and it says a lot about whether or not this group is unique, don't you think so?

Oh, but one more thing: I will never hesitate to ask a question here (maybe it is because I was born in a free country). And I hope that the other small guys here handle it the same way because that is what this forum is here for and that is what makes it alive.

And now let's wait for the scans Rob will post soon and apreciate them the way they deserve to be appreciated

[Panzer Rob]

Let's skip the part with the denazification....

Actually, I'd rather not skip that part, as you did say that it was "crudely denazified" and I'd really like to ask you to elaborate to help us better understand what exactly you mean by this. After all, this is a discussion forum

....and go directly to the part which counts:

Perhaps you can scan in and post some of your Panzer-Regiment "Großdeutschland" Panzer crew IDs to Panzer commanders with PAB in silver award entries and post them here.

No Rob, I cannot and no Rob I don't have to either. Because this is a discussion forum and no one told me that I have to own a GD-group in order to talk about a GD-group I have now being called jealous, of course the next thing is: do you have anything comparable? If not - you better be quiet (unless I say that everything is fantastic - then I am of course allowed to say something). I tell you what comes next if I go on. The next thing will be that someone just tells me that I am either stupid or ignorant (or both) if I don't see why this is a fantastic group.

Come on. Nobody said you 'needed' to post anything to participate in the discussion. The point I made was that these IDs are rare and not everyone can just dip into their collections and post a bunch. And I think what really counts here is that you get an explanation to the questions you're asking; why the group is so special and unique, why people are getting excited over it, talking about wraps and special shoulder boards, etc.

But let us agree that we simply don't agree here. I know that this group is soon with a guy who appreciates having it and that is not a bad thing after all. And you will get your responses of the "another-nice-one-Rob" type - which is good. But you know, when you contacted me privately yesterday and I asked you whether this is the best piece in your collection - your answer was: No, of course not. That is also my opinion - and it says a lot about whether or not this group is unique, don't you think so?

Technically speaking, every Soldbuch is unique, but since you asked for further clarification on what makes the group special/unique I -- and others -- explained it. Whether or not you agree is totally your choice which you are of course entitled to and nobody is going to tell you what/how you have to feel... But you did admit in your second post that you wouldn't mind owning it, so you must have some understanding of what makes it desirable, otherwise you wouldn't have stated that you would not mind having it

And just to be clear since you left most of it off, my entire answer was "No, of course not. But it's a great set to one of the most difficult to find Panzer units, and it's sure to be one of my favorites." So while it's not "the" best SB/group in my collection, it's definitely one of them

Oh, but one more thing: I will never hesitate to ask a question here (maybe it is because I was born in a free country).

I too was born in a free country, and like you I enjoy living free and having the freedom to ask questions whenever I see fit. However, in this case when I see someone questioning why people are getting so excited over what is obviously a very rare and desirable grouping and trying to talk it down, yet then express interest in owning it, I have to ask questions myself

But to me it just is what it is. A soldbuch to a Panzer guy in an intersting unit who saw some combat (but not too much). In the end he was with 3./Panzerjagd-Rgt. G.D.? So what?

Rob