Klein & Quenzer A.G.

[Dave Kane]

I'm in good company with Tom as I too got the BOOT!!!

[Sebastian Bianchi]

I'm in good company with Tom as I too got the BOOT!!!

Stay on topic please. K&Q.

[Brian S]

OK, back to topic. Every microscopic detail would be reproduced in a restrike. Material is NOT difficult to get. These are not made of anything special. On a mint KQ I would expect to see period frosting wouldn't you? Mint in case wouldn't it be beautifully frosted? The KQ's were finished with a "matte frosted silver rather than the white oxide effect on the inner frame and have a flat matte-black finish."

Wear die characteristics. This concerns me a little. I'm no expert on how KQ's die pressure was applied. Hand cranked? Variable pressure depending on settings? This could have the effect of changing the appearance of the very detailed die characteristics. This might hurt what I hoped might be a tool in determining a timeline.

Bottom line, if you have a KQ with frame and core 100% from the original dies you more than likely have an original wartime cross.

Tom, a paint sample would be microscopic if done properly. It would be such a minute amount of material you'd never see it.

I would like to see a mint KQ and have the frosting as described above shown clearly.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Bottom line, if you have a KQ with frame and core 100% from the original dies you more than likely have an original wartime cross.

It's a Festivus Miracle! Brian and I agree on something!

[Dietrich Maerz]

I beg to differ and hope I will not be banned .


An absolute identical cross with all the minute details and 'flaws' is made from the same die, BUT you just cannot say when (unless you have a progression in a flaw).
If the 57 K&Q shows all the same minute details it came from the same die and this is a clear indication that:

- the dies were still in use in 1957 plus, or
- the 57 crosses were made in 57 from left overs (which could also have been used for 45 style crosses)

To say that all K&Q are made before 45 might be very tru but you cannot conclude that out of this thread so far. No way!

Dietrich

[Brian S]

With the caveat that on a boxed mint KQ the frosting as described should be evident. If not then you can only conclude it came from the same die.

Is there a way you can photograph yours and somehow illustrate the frosting?

[Sebastian Bianchi]

With the caveat that on a boxed mint KQ the frosting as described should be evident.

Is there a way you can photograph yours and somehow illustrate the frosting?

I think the devil is in the details of the sentence. "Most likely" is the key. No one can prove it 100% either way.

And no, no banning

[Brian S]

But now that finishing is what is needed here to really complete the illustration. As Dietrich points out we have a clear perfect understanding these come from the same die. Let's take it to the next level. Can photography illustrate this? Photographed on different color background, next to another RK, next to an EKI by KQ in mint condition?

[milsurp]

I don't follow where this thread is going with respect to the frosting, you can see the frosting on nearly every photo in this thread, but either way what would this prove?

[Brian S]

Craig, if a mint in box KQ didn't have the right frosting what would you think about it?

[milsurp]

I agree with this point, but the point I was trying to make is, I think most if not all of the crosses have the correct frosting. Harry's photos are the only ones I'm not sure about and that is probably down to artificial light.

[Brian S]

What we need is to illustrate it clearly. A perfectly frosted piece next to a well worn piece with no frosting should show the difference. Two photos in different light and backgrounds won't illustrate the comparison.

[milsurp]

Personally I think the only way to put this `conspiracy theory` to bed is to find a die progression as with S&L or a subtle core difference. Maybe we all need to go back and look at our crosses again with a x30 loupe. We desperately need to find a trend within the manufacturing process to provide a time line. I fail to see how else we can do it unless each cross is subject to paint analysis.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

I think we have moved beyond the conspiracy theories... I for one feel good that all of our crosses here match die fingerprints.

[milsurp]

You can see they are all from the same die, but that doesn't answer the question of when they were produced.