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    #31
    Post War Knight's Crosses

    In my motel buy travels I ran across a German in the Chicago area who came to the US in the 1950s. He was too young for the war, but was in the HJ and always was a collector of medals. IN the early 1950s after arriving in the states he contacted various medal producers in Germany and bought many Third Reich medals directly from the manufacturer (in opposition to the standard we can't sell those answer).
    I bought THREE Knight's Crosses with ribbons. The ribbons were definately from the war era and were full length ( he had four ). The Knight's Crosses were marked 800 and were of such quality and workmanship that, while I sold them as post war, I found out that they were sold as originals. The German paid $3.00 each in 1955.
    He also had Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords, but these were lighter in weight and less quality (better than the 1957 models).
    Therefore it is my belief that if you were German and didn't want large quantities they would sell either original old stock, combinations there of, or out right post war produced EK items.
    Just as with daggers, many items were continued to be sold and produced in direct violation of the laws by the original manufacturers. If you didn't sell massive quantities and were confident in your customer, items were supplied. Business was business.
    I had several experts look at the three Knight's Crosses and the opinion was that they were K&Qs. Mint and up to standard they were probably sold as originals after they left my hands in 1998 ( I believe I got $800.00 each), but can't say. I sold them as post war, as with all the items I got from this German. The ribbons were sold separately.
    When you couple this with the three large Schloss Klossheim veteran hits that I was lucky enough to find, the number of unissued Knight's Crosses and left over material is large and of great quality. Unless you get the cross with documentation and/or an Urkunde, it might be new old stock or unissued originals of a period unknown.
    Ron Weinand
    Weinand Militaria

    Comment


      #32
      How could one determine whether a K&Q cross has been produced after May 1945?

      As a reference piece one needs a dead solid pre 45 K&Q as a starting point. That cross needs to be examined redarding minute beading and core details, down to a very low resolution level. This will tell us about the absolute non-reproducable features of ONE single die. If a detail is less than ½ of a milimeter, it cannot be reproduced with another die. Just not possible. I’m talking about minute rips, indents and such. This has been proved sufficiently with S&L and also with the infamous oaks.

      As a side note: If it would be possible to reproduce those features (by let’s say laser cutting/copying from an original or whatever theory was thrown out there) we all better move into a different field of collecting. This is the absolute cornerstone of our hobby, not more not less!

      Now one can compare to pieces without provenance and say with very, very high propability whether the cross in question came from the same die. But you cannot tell when it was struck.

      With K&Q we are lucky however! Harry has a 57 cross with evidently the same pre-45 frame. This needs to be confirmed but this is how it stands right now.
      If this 57 frame turns out to be the same it should - logically – show a more worn out beading than a pre-45, if even so slightly. I hope we can see that. Low production runs however might not allow for that. Maybe there’s a minute flaw, maybe something else.
      Apart form all kinds of “left over frames”, “bin theories”, “multiple dies” and whhatever else came up during the S&L discussion the fact remains that in 57 and up K&Q was evidently using the same die and did produce RK’s with it. So we have two facts already established:

      - the dies or at least sufficient frames survived the war

      - the knowledge and production facilities were still in place in 57

      As a side note: If frames survived the war (as a theory), cores will have survived, too!

      Tom has suggested to investigate the paint. I don’t see this as being conclusive since K&Q might have had the same paint still in 57 and maybe even later. It doesn’t take that much and I don’t think that there was a huge jump in paint technology in the early post war years. For possible K&Q made in the 80’s (as a theory!!), it might very well be the case that one finds modern traces. Only then it is conclusive, not the other way around.

      As Brian suggested, the only possible approach at this point in time (and taking out all othe unproven rumors and theories about truckloads full of minty crosses, dies in the USA, …) is to try to establish a die deterioration time line with two crosses, if possible. No matter what one things about the S&L die flaw, it is absolutely and undisputable evidence of a time line (at least for me…) The piece itself has to tell us the story, nothing else counts.

      I hope I will get the pictures I kindly requested from Harry and we should take it from there.

      Dietrich
      B&D PUBLISHING
      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

      Comment


        #33
        Is it of note that we only have ONE K&Q RK? I have never seen another one, and if they produced then in any quantity we should have seen them early and often... they have a very distinct look to them.
        Sebastián J. Bianchi

        Wehrmacht-Awards.com

        Comment


          #34
          SEBA,
          What do you mean we have only one - are you saying we have seen only one period photo with one?
          Marc

          Comment


            #35
            Worthy

            Gentlemen,

            Ron Wienand, in my opionion, is the most honest and trustworthy dealer/collector in our hobby. His point regarding the post war produced K&Qs should make many owners of this maker's RK reconsider and further assess. Maybe we have answered the question regarding why there are so many recently available.

            Also, I hope Ron can provide us further insight into the Klessheim 'hord'.


            MIKE

            Comment


              #36
              Gents,
              I cannot get any decent pics right now as we are in darkness in the UK, but I will try at the weekend.

              The '57er K&Q appears in Pic. No. 1. The frames are exact in every detail to its two '39 predecessors.
              HOWEVER, lets not jump to conclusions. It is my firm belief that this '57 is made using pre- '45 leftovers. The reasoning being that, as well as being identical to the '39ers, it also has a 65 marked suspension loop. If K&Q had loops left a full 12 years after the war then they are just as likely to have had frames. This cross came from an RKt grouping of v.early 1957 awards, including a DkiG. All show the early oaks pattern - see my other thread showing the entire grouping plus pics of the RKt.

              Regards,

              Comment


                #37
                Harry,

                yes, it would be very premature to jump to any conclusions and left over frames (and cores, etuis and cartons!!!???) are a very distinct and likely possibility. However, a detailled investigation of the beading is surely worth while. The best really would be to scan the crosses.

                Dietrich
                B&D PUBLISHING
                Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Flak88
                  SEBA,
                  What do you mean we have only one - are you saying we have seen only one period photo with one?
                  Marc
                  I should have clarified - I meant of the 57 variety.

                  Ron I notice you say "had several experts look at the three Knight's Crosses and the opinion was that they were K&Qs."

                  If you don't mind me asking, why would it take several experts? K&Q are so obvious that you can spot one from across the room.
                  Sebastián J. Bianchi

                  Wehrmacht-Awards.com

                  Comment


                    #39
                    OK, some K&Q fingerprints! Sorry about the quality, but I am working under artificial Light.

                    Flaws on beading, 12 o'clock arm R side
                    Last edited by Harry; 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      I scanned my friend's K&Q at 1200dpi. The files are 1.5MB. Beware.
                      Marc

                      http://garlasco.com/kqob.jpg

                      http://garlasco.com/kqrev.jpg

                      Check out the top corner of the reverse right arm (which is on the left side of the screen). Interesting joint - looks like it overlaps...

                      Regards,
                      Marc

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Beading pattern continued onto polished surface, 12 o'clock arm, left of eye.
                        Last edited by Harry; 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          'Step' between polished surface and beading, below date, is uneven - wider on Left side than right..........
                          Last edited by Harry; 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Marc,

                            beautifull scans!

                            Dietrich
                            B&D PUBLISHING
                            Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                            Comment


                              #44
                              'Doughnut' ring has flat outer surface.......
                              Last edited by Harry; 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Polished outer border of frame, looking dead-on front, is wider on 3 o'clock arm than on 9 o'clock...this is in fact a 'finishing' flaw and will vary from cross to cross, and may not even be present on some.
                                Last edited by Harry; 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM.

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