What happened to the others or if they were ever used to make restrikes I have no idea, but the lack of any convincing copies suggests not.Having the dies is one thing, having the expertise to make a perfect replica including the all imporatnt finishing, is quite another matter.
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It was indeed rumor. While it seems that it was much ado about nothing regarding the dies, it was good to bring out learn all of the different characteristics. -
Seba, have a look at post #156...these among lots others were couched as 'rumors' years ago and it took just that long to dispell the 'dealer speak' but things are a bit different today....this site at the forefront!!!
All of those 'items' I mentioned were 'ORIGINAL' for a long time and sold, traded and passed around among the dealers....a few non dealers but ardent collectors shouted toward deaf ears and didn't have the net to enable them....
The truth however finally caught up....
The K&Q 'test' shouldn't be different nor should the naysayers be faulted....
So far this discussion IMO leans toward a + positive for these crosses but as in the past....it may take years to be fully conclusive....well maybe less with Email, PM and instant pics etc.!!Regards,
DaveComment
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Hi Dave, I cannot add anything to the RK argument but these helmets were not original WW2 German tropical production. They were Czech reworks intended for export.Originally posted by Dave Kane
Cheers, Ade.Comment
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Interesting thread. As I have mentioned in other posts, IMO the issue of post war restrikes from original dies casts a slight shadow over all TR medal and badge collecting, especially "mint unissued" items. The only FACT I am comfortable with regarding this issue is that, at least in some cases, the original dies survived the war and may or may not have been used to make restrikes. This has been proven by the existence of some items known to be made from original dies (ie the SL 57 RKs and others). Stories of bombed factories etc etc are wishful thinking, not fact. We just don't know for sure what survived and what didn't. Look at the KQ RK. All of a sudden a 57 version pops up, thus opening the door for speculation. Who is to say for sure that this won't happen w/ the Juncker RK? Who is to say it hasn't already happened? I also think it is fairly easy to envision restrikes being made from the moment the war ended, making the very early ones...made w/ original materials or even left over parts and by the original craftsmen all but impossible to distinguish from "wartime" pieces. Provenance, although this can be hazy too, is the only way to know w/ any degree of certainty. I also think there is a bit of "art" involved here. Yes, IMO our hobby is an art. Technical facts, spectral analysis and extreme closeup pictures can only carry you so far. A collector's eye and some talent are also required to point out the "right" pieces....most of you guys know what I mean. That certain something that, say an original worn, as-pulled-off the guy's tunic in 1944 Juncker pilot badge has. You don't have to look at it under a microscope...you just know. I'm not trying to belittle the efforts of Dietrich et al...just the opposite. I find these technical studies fascinating and think they advance the hobby immeasurably...but there is more to it. Here are some other issues to ponder. There exist L/11 marked 57 EK1s that appear to have been made from original left over parts...are all L/11 TR versions post war made? The so called J3 Juncker pilot badge shows what can be interpreted as the "progressive die flaws" (the talon) used as a tool to build a timeline for the SL restrikes. Are these badges in fact post war restrikes made by Juncker? They did make restrikes of many other items.Comment
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Of course, anything can be converted. The sniper conversions, M43 helmets or, for example, double Erel Army caps converted to W/SS don't really fall into this argument. Then you would have to add EKs with paint touched up, zinc badges with new finishing, LW 2nd pattern daggers with gold newly-painted swastikas, etc. These are not examples of new production rumours. I'm not familiar with the Norwegian SS marked leather, but I can say that over 90% of SS marked leather pieces I've been offered have had fake markings applied.
Erich
I'll add a few RUMORS or so they were called (25) years ago....
Mint M43 Helmets converted to SS......now found to be a fact!
K98k's turned in to SNIPER versions......fact
SS marked leather found in Norway.....rumor at the time....subsequently shown to be fact.
Tropical steel helmets...leftover stock.....Rumor.....now factFestina lente!Comment
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Now we're getting off topic... of course SOME rumors turn out to be truth... but just the same a lot of others (like the EK 26) turn out to be false.Comment
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Rumors
Right. Probably way more are false than true.GeorgeComment
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Yes, Ade I wasn't clear on that one....'thought' orig. at first but subsequently shown to be otherwiseOriginally posted by Adrian Stevenson
Regards,
DaveComment
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I didn't intend to be flippant, but I've been collecting actively for a long, long time, and most of the rumors do prove to be smoke.
ErichFestina lente!Comment
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As in they turn out to be truth?Originally posted by Erich
Erich, did you read this entire thread? I am interested and insistent here because this thread is a microcosm of an alarming trend here, a trend to work backwards in assumptions. The "rumor" is started here. Gordon Williamson said that he didn't know what happened to the dies. Just that they survived the war. But then again, all (or most) dies survived the war.
Just based on that, a rumor gets started...we start dealing with the "what if" and not the "what is". In the end all our RKs match and everyone is comfortable, but I think this could have been achieved in a different way... at least one person panicked and was ready to ship off their perfectly fine Q&K because of this thread. Many people read this forum seriously, and that’s fine, but we have to accountable for what we type.Comment
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Rumors
By smoke I mean they dissolve into nothing--they have no substance. I can tell you that at least from the 1960s, there have been hundreds if not thousands of rumors that were, for the most part, unsubstantiated. I won't mention any because I don't want to cause more panic!
I've followed this thread with great interest! I've owned 3 K&Qs (in fact, at least one of the groupings is currently owned by a member of this forum) and will probably buy more of them in the future, so I'm very interested in the information being shared, but I'm not put off by stories. If I were, I would have sold off my collection many years ago!
ErichFestina lente!Comment
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Thanks for the clarification Erich.Originally posted by ErichComment
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I own 2 KQ RKs, both in large groupings (including the fine group that Erich mentioned). I also own or have owned Junckers and SLs, mainly in attributed groups. I have no problem whatsoever w/ the KQs...in fact I really like them. They have kind of a "deco" look to them w/ the straighter arms and sleek, crisp details. I think they are attractive. In fact when I evaluate a group, I almost prefer to see a KQ w/ a mid-late war award date...that is an "up check" for me. Again, I think the 65 marked KQs are the "classic" later war award pieces and were probably made in comparatively large numbers. I also think it stands to reason that, if any type were to be found as mint/unissued leftovers at war's end, it would be the KQs.Comment
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I just talked to the analytical lab at Iowa State University and they have agreed to analyze my K&Q and a "standard". I will use a juncker cross with provenance for the known "standard" for paint. The presumption with this is that black paint used by the firms will be comparable with regard to elemental composition. The technique reccommended was scanning electron microscopy with elemental analysis. This can be performed cheaply ($85 per hour) and accurately. Very interesting. I just need to block out some time to take a jaunt up to Iowa State- exciting news for me.
I agree that this is an "art", but so is medicine. There we rely upon judgement and experience, but also heavily upon technology to deliniate anatomical and chemical derangements. I think if we look upon this as a nice, cheap, incredibly helpful test, it may be used to detect and evaluate other potential inconsistencies (fakes).Comment
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Tom,
I await your results with bated breath! Can you photograph the procedure? I think it would make an amazing article!!!
And my thanks to SEBA, and everyone who posted on this thread. Nothing as good as a frank and honest discussion of facts. And nice to see Gordon's great love of the K&Q is strong as ever!
Regards,
MarcComment
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