What the.....!!!!

[Dave Kane]

I thought I'd seen a lot of 'interesting' objects and combinations but this one is something else!!!!

A severly flawed S&L with Oaks and Swords marked with L 12......

Let's have some commentary on this!

[Dave Kane]

1

[Dave Kane]

2

[Dietrich Maerz]

This is how a "800" L 12 Oaks with Swords should look, regarding to Detlev. I cannot see any resemblance to the one from Mr. Weitze.

So do we have a new variant of the swords?? Not to speak of the really heavily flawed S&L. But the combination of one good and one bad does not make both good or both bad, I guess.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

This stuff get more ridiculous daily!!!! Soon we will see the rare 'varient' a SPECKLED dated RK

[Harry]

Yes I saw this one too. Notice it is listed with a price of $0, I wonder if he is giving it away!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is top half of page 234 from H. Geissler's book "Das Eiserne Kreuz". It clearly seems to show the same L 12 as the one featured on Mr. Weitze's site. The description is also the same, most importantly the 'raised' L 12. He say that this one is a so called "Vorlagestueck" (reference piece), is made of tombak with silver coating and was destined for private sales. He also states that he thinks thoses pieces are very rare.

Now we have definetely two pieces from Juncker for the swords and the question comes up immidiately: Why?

Juncker was not elected to be the sole supplier (which was of course Godet) and why would or did Juncker come up with TWO dies for an award, it was not allowed to sell and even if, a possible total number of 200-300 swords, might really not warrant two dies.

But it seems that the piece at Weitzes site is legitimate after all.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich...are they the same? The loop is completely different and crude in appearance not to mention the 'straight cuts' in the outer portions of the leaves...almost like a hacksaw cut.


Also, the top (1oc) leaves seem very pronounced again unlike the set featured in 'Das Eiserne Kreuz'.

maybe one of your great 'layovers' could bring these apparent differences out!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,


I have to honestly admitt that I didn't venture into doing a very close comparison since I said to myself: Why would somebody fake a raised L 12? So I'm giving Mr. Weitze the benefit of the doubt. If his is not the same as the one in Geissler's book, that realy would be something!

But see for yourselve. Beware, the Geissler picture is slightly tilted, not straight on.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

... and the reverse

[Dave Kane]

Thanks Dietrich!!! There are half a dozen 'visuals' that are different and even considering hand finishing etc. I believe they are from different dies....


So, will the real L 12 Oaks/swords please come forward!!!

[Dave Kane]

Thoughts?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Okay, so we have three different L 12 now! So what!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Really very disappointing.....The almighty $$$ and the gullible collector!

[meriksson]

Well im not in to this but i dont think they did use more than one mold for those.
And what off those are orginal???

Mikael