Klein & Quenzer RK

[J. Wraith]

Did you examined it personally or you saying it from what you see on the pictures?

For some reason the places where you are saying the blood is, only on the rim where patina usually is(which sometimes can vary in color), and not even one speak of blood anywhere on the core, ....or someone washed off the blood before pocketed it and missed a few spots on the rim?

I'm just looking at the photos, but the two spots on the arm do look like blood, if there is blood on the arms than I would imagine its elsewhere. It would seem to be also on the interior arm as well. Of course all those posts are on the frame, its easier to spot the color on the frame than on the core so that is why I am looking there for the signs of blood.

I am just thinking that if it got inside the frame and the outside of the frame, that it certainly would have hit the core of the cross. I think you would be able to see this under a scope and identify it and may even be able to swab it with some kind of chemical test, I will have to look at that. But I think the way it looks if these areas are in fact blood that it would certainly be consistant (sic) with splatter or spray. If that is the case you can rule out target practice as to duplicate that you would certainly need to do more than cut a finger and apply it.

The core if hit in an undamaged area with blood spray could rust and here you have rust spots in areas with no damage or rust around them, that could very well mean that the blood ate through the paint making that are more susceptible to rust or even aiding in rust.

[J. Wraith]

Did you examined it personally or you saying it from what you see on the pictures?

For some reason the places where you are saying the blood is, only on the rim where patina usually is(which sometimes can vary in color), and not even one speck of blood anywhere on the core, ....or someone washed off the blood before pocketed it and missed a few spots on the rim?

Take a look at post # 36 2nd photo on top of the 9'o clock arm. That sure looks like blood in that photo.

Then Post # 63 3 O clock arm circled at the interior frame

Post 36 2nd Photo again has rust pooled in the center of the bullet path but not above or below, then you have spots of rust indiscriminately in the paint. Why did it not rust above or below?. I think that is strange and that is really the impact area.

[jmark]

I hope you all don't mind if I slightly divert from the main topic.

I know of one Knight's Cross winner who was shot in the neck. During the battle of Stalingrad, Wachtmeister Siegfried Freyer from Panzer-Regiment 24 was in the cupola of his Panzer IV when struck in the neck by a Russian 14.5mm anti-tank rifle round. His company commander (who I've been in contact with for many years) was convinced that the Russian rifleman was aiming at the RK glistening around Freyer's neck. Unfortunately I don't know if the RK itself was hit. but incredibly, the massive round somehow missed striking anything vital (I thought everything in the neck was vital!) and Freyer recovered a few months later.

Knowing where this RK was found might provide some clues about the owner's identity. The list of candidates can't be too long. How many RKTs were killed on the Eastern Front?

Jason

[blitzkrieg gsd]

I think the cross would be a great target for a sniper. And if you think snipers don't check the bodys of enemy that they kia your crazy. Have you ever heard of a confirmed kill? Have you even heard of a boars tooth? If you kill a enemy sniper that you have been hunting if you can you go examine the body. Then you take his weapon and open the action and remove the round. That round in the chamber probably had your name on it. That round would have killed you if he would have been quicker on the trigger. So you remove the bullet from the case and keep it or make a necklace out of it. That's what us Marines call a boars tooth. And you always check a officers body for intelligence always as long as it don't put you in danger. So the argument that you wouldn't check the body holds no weight at all. If you have spent any time around snipers or professional marksman you would know that they like to brag. And I can see the guy bringing this cross back to show his buddys what kind of a shot he made on this guy. Anything can happen and maybe the guy got a burst from a belt feed mg and one got him in the neck. But someone took this cross and brought it home for a reason. If you just wanted it as a souvenir why would you take one that was destroyed? Where would have been plenty of ways to get a complete mint one. My main point is there was a reason someone took this home. And I think the reason was that they were proud of the shoot.

[Flemming]

What heppend to "buy" the cross, not the story.
All I really see/hear is speculations and no proff...saying it is blood, do not make it so. Not without any proof.
I think this is one of the interesting items in our hobby, that we really never will know how and what did happen...AND when it did happen.

/Flemming

[blitzkrieg gsd]

You are rite Flem that iis a cool thing about are hobby you never know what these things have been threw. And all we can do is make the best call with what we have to work with. But this cross gives us enough clues to what happened to it. Its up to us to do the detective work. That's something that most pieces don't give us so we never know there story. This cross is something diffrent that we can work with and maybe find out a bit of what happened.

[J. Wraith]

I think finding the blood is not going to be all that difficult really, if it turns out to be blood its certainly a compelling piece when you add it all up.

[TrondK]

What if the fallen soldier was highly valued by his comrades and they sendt all of his belongings back to his family in Germany?! And when the war was over this RK was eiter stolen by a invading soldier when looting his widows home, or sold by the family to a dealer/collector some decades after the war.

Just my 2cent

Anyway, if i saw this for sale on Estand i would problaby sell my soul to get it.

[blitzkrieg gsd]

It could have been taken by a friend and sent home for sure. I just want to believe it was done by a sniper round it makes a better story. But the facts are we will never know for sure what the true story is. But we can take the evidence we have and make the best call we can. I like the cross so much I want it to have a great story. I can't wait to see this at the SOS next month. Its on the top of my list of things to see and maybe by then JR will have seen it under magnification. That will give us some more info about it.

[JR.]

Well tonight, I finally did get an opportunity to put this RK under some good magnification. The quality assurance tech at this lab pointed out several areas of not only on the rim of the cross, but on the reverse under and next to the 1813 date, that he said showed signs of organic material. The substance was on the surface of the RK and not part of it's composition. He also stated that it definitely was not patina, or scuffs, but an actual substance that very well could be blood. It's truly amazing when you put an Knights Cross under powerful magnification, what you can see. Just the paint on the core alone, looks and inch thick when viewed through a good scope.

Kind of eerie, the further that I dig into it,.................. I really wonder how much more I really want to know............

[blitzkrieg gsd]

I telling you JR that cross was around someones neck when a bullet went threw it. I have no dought about it and it was probably a sniper round. The Russians were known for useing snipers and they probably had more then any other country in the war. There's not dought in my mind that is a bullet hole in the cross. If you have a set of calibers handy take a measurement of the hole and see if its close to 30caliber. And if the hole is the rite size and there is proven organic matter on the cross then it leaves no dought. There must have been alot of blood on it for there still to be traces of it after seventy yrs. But a neck shot would produce alot of blood so I have no problem thinking there would still be some on the cross. It just all goes to makeing the cross that much cooler in my mind. I like relics that were actually there in the middle of a battle its so much cooler then a piece that a GI traded a pack of smoke for after the fact. Make sure you don't forget it cause its at the top of my list of things to see this yr at the SOS. So I will be looking for you on Friday I have to see this thing in person.

[mdj]

Interesting to tell is that KC holder Erich Schlemminger survived schrapnel which bounched on this knights cross which was hanging on his neck.





martin