Originally posted by Luis22
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Best,
J
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If you red my post better you will see I hold little doubt to what the piece is, what got my attention is this new found strategy to authenticate through science and not only is that not necessary in this case in my opinion, the findings are not going to date the damage or the blood and essentially give you the same answers as you can most likely get from your human eyes and under magnification. I do not like the science angle unless it is utilized properly and the question fits with the ability of the tests. In this case blood is visible is a pattern, the cross has what I believe to be an obvious gunshot and there is probably trace material from the bullet jacket. A lab will not give you more than that.
Best,
J -
A couple of photos for you guys. You can definitely see a dark brown/red substance in this photo. It's concentrated most on the 3 o'clock arm on the obverse and which becomes the 9 o'clock arm when the cross is turned over. It is found Spackled both obverse and reverse in various areas.Last edited by JR.; 01-25-2012, 02:32 PM.Comment
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This photo shows what looks like the projectile nicking the 3 o'clock arm on the obverse on the bead, on the way to hitting the core. It also shows the core medal being peeled toward the swastika as if the projectile is not only coming in from the right, but also at a very extreme angle to the cross.Comment
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In this photo, the divot on this shard is very smooth, and carved out cylindrically.Comment
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As we know the construction of RK, EK etc, that the core was place between the 2 halve of the frame and then soldered in place. No pressing, crimping or any other force used in assembly.
This photo shows that the projectile moved through the core with such velocity it left the imprint of the bead of the frame, imbedded into the actual iron of the core.Comment
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JR,
I think that post 63 is where your would want to look for jacket trace from the projectile, and 64 near the core is where you might find blood trace. No way to know where this was hanging when it was hit only that the cross got struck on an apparent angle. Blood on bare medal over time is going to give you a red rust look as it reacts with metal in a weird way and not sure how to describe it but they do not get along.
JComment
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This area here even under 10x magnification, shows a copper colored metal that has scraped onto the core.Comment
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Very interesting piece!Originally posted by JR. View Post
What I wonder is how it was found on a battle field in this condition, no damage to paint, not much rust to the core, it must be picked up right after the guy was shot, ...but who will be looking for someones damaged cross while being shot at, and even if they did - than this cross should be found in Germany where they would take it. Than if Russians would found it on a battle field a little after they would just simply trampled it in the mud, ...someone kept this souvenir right after it was shot at.
This is very possible scenario:
Originally posted by Ludwig View PostComment
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Are you sure that is blood there, not just patina?Comment
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A sniper after making a kill shot on a high ranking officer if he could would go examine the body for intelligence. After checking the body would take the cross to show his buddys how good of a shoot he made. Plus the cross would be verification of the kill of a high ranking officer. This in my mind is a very believable situation and fits what I see on the cross. I say the officer was wearing his cross and the shot was made from a elevated position from about 100yards. The ribbon was probably soaked with blood from the hit in the base of neck and was thrown away. The cross probably had alot more blood on it and was cleaned by the sniper who took it. Or it has just came off with time over the years.
Jr how long have you had the cross? Did the person you got it from give you any idea on how long he had owned it? No matter what the mystery and the coolness factor make this my new favorite KC. And its on top of my list of things to see at this yrs SOS.Comment
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High ranking officers would be surrounded by a large staff and troops if you ask me. He wouldn't be wandering the fields by himself.Originally posted by blitzkrieg gsd View Post
Most snipers take a shot then get out of Dodge or lay low until they can escape undetected. I highly doubt many go to look at the body.Comment
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The damage to this RK certainly looks like a bullet strike at an angle. I've shot many bullets at metal targets, and I've seen similar damage. In my opinion, a rifle was used, most likely .30 cal, either .30-06 or the Soviet 7.62x54R round (both are roughly equivalent in velocity and energy). It's highly unlikely a pistol or SMG round could produce such damage.Last edited by jt327gir; 01-26-2012, 01:55 AM.Comment
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I 1st saw this RK 22 years ago at the MAX show in Baltimore. It was with a grouping with and SS dog tag, an SS private purchase ring (not SSTK), seems like 1 piece of cloth, an aluminum SS officer's belt buckle, and I can't remember if anything else. The price at that time was $7500 for the group. I asked the vendor why it was so much money and his exact words were............."because I like it and I don't mind if it doesn't sell". The RK did not have the suspension ring, nor the ribbon. I took the guys business card and stopped by the table several times over the 3 day period, to awe over the group. I called the dealers number when I returned home from the show, at least 2-3 times but never got an answer.
Moving ahead 10 years later: in 2000 when GDC was 1st starting up, an RK collector showed the cross on the web site. I contacted him and asked that if the piece were to come up for sale, I would be interested in purchasing it. The collector told me that he purchase the RK separately at some point, and that was the only item from the group that he had. He specifically said that he added the loop and the ribbon to make the cross more complete for him. He said that the only info that he had, was that it was picked up on the battlefield on the Eastern Front. I purchase the piece and have owned it for the last 12 years. As a matter of fact I did offer it a couple of years back on the estand and a collector tried to sell some items from his collection, in order to purchase it, but was unable to do so. I kind of like the ole salty RK, and decided to keep it.
If you look at my posts, I make no claims on it, but have only presented the photos and info for the enjoyment of the collecting community. And also welcome them to view the piece if they are at the SOS next month.
JRLast edited by JR.; 01-26-2012, 02:20 AM.Comment
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The reverse 9 o' clock on top of the arm is not tarnish and would appear to be blood.
The Reverse 4 o'clock center of the arm is not tarnish and would appear to be blood.
Heavy concentration of reddish rust in bullet path on reverse center but its concentrated there and could be a mixture. Blood contains oxygen and can and can promote rust on iron or in time eat through a finish.
On post 63 it would appear you see the same thing on the interior arm of the frame. And the same color, and that runs parallel to the the rust line of the cross where is seperated from tyhe arm.
The patterns of rust seem to be with no real method and blood would eat through it over time, can ever take the paint off a car. If it removes paint than rust would not only be able to work its way but the blood would promote it.
There is a straight rust line on the 3 O' Clock arm that appears to almost be on the paint surface.
Its a really weird thing as the bullet damaged some paint and then you seem to have rust out of areas with no damage.
It would certainly be a money shot and the shooter may not have been that far off in reality, the bullet strike would have drove the cross forward but as it passed the cross would most likely have reversed violently away from the body as it came apart and may even have blown it off the suspension ring if that was in fact replaced. The rust patterns are sporatic and the arms appear to contain the color of old blood.Last edited by J. Wraith; 01-26-2012, 03:00 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by J. Wraith View Post
Did you examined it personally or you saying it from what you see on the pictures?
For some reason the places where you are saying the blood is, only on the rim where patina usually is(which sometimes can vary in color), and not even one speck of blood anywhere on the core, ....or someone washed off the blood before pocketed it and missed a few spots on the rim?Comment
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