Klein & Quenzer RK

[Steinar]

Thats a very special cross. Really shows the darker side of our hobby.

[Ludwig]

Target practising by some allied soldier?

[Lowboy]

Indeed, my RK and my photos that someone posted some time ago. The 1st one in this topic is a fake that was pictured and shown in Stephens Iron Time book. But this Q&K is mine and it's the 1st time that I've actually photographed it properly and started a topic on it.

Thank you for posting!!!!

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Look at the front and rear arms, it was cylindrical and moved through at an angle striking both arms of the cross, looks like a rifle bullet hitting a thin piece of medal at an angle to me. View post # 2 at 3 O'Clock on both sides, on the rear its lower as if the trajectory was from an above angle.

THIS IS A NICE ORIGINAL WAR TIME SNIPER DAMAGE CROSS THANKS FOR SHOWING

I agree this could no way to say for sure bjt could have been a Sniper shoot. And I can say with a 99% certainty this is a rifle round. I have examined to many rifle rds threw all kinds of medal to even think it was caused by anything else. He said it was said to have come from the eastern front rite? It looks like the rite size for a 7.62 rd and the same kind of damage one would make. We all know that's the size rd Russian Snipers used on that front. And we all know that they used there Snipers and Snipers like to fire from elevated positions. Were the cross would have been worn is very close to were the aiming point would be also. All Snipers are trained to pick a target who will be missed when killed. A officer wearing a high award would be a great target. All of these things put together makes me think this is exactly what we are looking at hear. And that my friends makes this the coolest KC I have ever seen big time cool.

JR that's one bad _ss cross and I have to see it in person. So you will be at the SOS next month you say will you have a table? If not I saw you ask if you could display it on another members table who said it was ok. Can you or the member who offered to display it please give me a table number if you have it or maybe the place you was at last year? I will be there and its going on my list of things to go see rite now.

[J. Wraith]

This is a really neat piece and while there is no way to say for sure what hit this but the arms tell the story off the bat, I have never seen a perfectly round fragmentation. If you look at the front 3 o'clock arm on the core you see the same thing again, the projectile strikes the right arm at an angle and explodes the cross and you see a cylindrical downward angle that would lead to the lower reverse arm. If you were to bend the right arm back in place the bullet strike would be uncanny and either went at an angle or deflected downward.

The rust spots and these are difficult as its an internet forum and photos have that blood look and they look the same on the core and the frame, I would wager there is blood on that cross. Copper trace is possible and the soft jackets will leave visible trace and unless you really, really scrub it, it will remain there and will not come off that easy.

It will never be a 10k or 15k cross but as it sits it looks like a really fun piece of history that will no doubt give clue to its true fate in a manner I have never seen in a bullet ridden artifact. I like it.

Sniper? no way to tell, damage could be 50 yards or 500 yards and this is not CSI. Good chance that cross was a target though and likely under 200 yards, most likely 100.

J

[JR.]

I plan on having the RK at Dietrich Maerz's table at the show. If Dietrich has his has his scope that he inspects and analyzes RK with at the show, all the better as it may shed some more info on the piece. Also we now have a forensic DNA lab in the city that I live in, and if I can find some inside assistance for some possiible testing, that may provide some additional information.

As mentioned, an RK holder would be a high value target for a sniper. If anyone is looking for an outstanding book on the subject, check out "Marine Sniper", the Carlos Hathcock story. A truly outstanding book!


Once again, thank your for the kind words on this thread.

JR

[WEISNER]

great cross, IMO it could be anything from an unlucky shrapnal hit to a Sniper shot! Fact is we will never know!

Kevin

[Flemming]

I really have a hard time belileving that this cross was hit by a bullet.
If we say f.ex. a 7.62 as suggested, it travels with so high speed, that I would expect to see a "perfect" round hole, where the projectile hits the cross.
There will (maybe) be some strains (small hairline cracks) protuding out from where the projectile hit the cross.
But this king of damage, froma bullet?...I doubt it.

/Flemming

I might be proven wrong...would not be the first time

[J. Wraith]

I do not really see the need for a lab to tell what this piece saw, everyone wants to run to a lab in some kind of authentication prospect and in most cases it does not work nor is it proof of anything. This piece is simply what it is and I can grab an AK-47 drive down the road with some sheet metal scrap and duplicate that at 50 yards in about a 1/2 hour with a little work. That is exactly what a high velocity bullet does when it strikes an object. It will most certainly leave copper trace that would be visible under magnification and I know this. No matter who fired that shot your going to have trace from the jacket. You take that to a lab with a scraping and your going to get trace elements from the iron or whatever that is made of and your going to get copper in there as an element. All this jabber jaw lab stuff is total horse dung and unless you have a specific question and know how to approach the answer without polluting the results you got nothing.

I will bring a brandy new 20.00 Bill to the show and lay that on Dietrich's table and bet that is a bullet and that there is blood, and that is my bet and my opinion and I have shot more stuff over the years than many.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I just want to say this:

People can look at this cross at my table and make all kinds of assumptions. I can provide a loupe (I don't know yet wether I will drag my scope in .. I know I should!)

All I personally can say to this piece is that it is a K&Q. I cannot even start to say something about bullets, trajectories, blood, cloth or whatever. I can also not say when and how this damage was done. I simply do not have any education or knowledge in that direction.

Dietrich

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Flemming why do say that you don't believe a bullet could have done this? If you have spent any time shooting diffrent rounds into diffrent kinds of metal you would see holes just like this. A bullet would have folded that medal back just like that. I have fired many rounds into diffrent kinds of medal and the results are the same as we see here. The explanation I gave below is just what seems to make sense. A piece of shrap metal would not punch a round hole into it. Any kind of shrap medal would take the path of least resistance rite? I will be at the show and this is on my list of things to see. And I bet by the time I get to it JR will tell me they have found bullet residue on it. So see you there JR and I can't wait to see your cross and in my book the value of this is more. Where would you find another one has anyone else ever seen one? I know I haven't so this one is a one of a kind were there is plenty of them undamaged.

[Flemming]

I say that, because I have a hard time believing a bullet would make that hole...if it was mounted at a human body. That was a detail that I forgot to add.
The body ( I think) would stop the cross from bending like that, in my opinion.
If the cross was strapped to something, then maybe yes. That would also explain the weird damage to the frame, to the right of the 1813 date on the back.

/Flemming

[Flemming]

PS By strapped to something, I mean that one arm of the cross was tighten at something, and the rest of the cross was "hanging" free in the air.

/Flemming

[Luis22]

I do not really see the need for a lab to tell what this piece saw, everyone wants to run to a lab in some kind of authentication prospect and in most cases it does not work nor is it proof of anything. This piece is simply what it is and I can grab an AK-47 drive down the road with some sheet metal scrap and duplicate that at 50 yards in about a 1/2 hour with a little work. That is exactly what a high velocity bullet does when it strikes an object. It will most certainly leave copper trace that would be visible under magnification and I know this. No matter who fired that shot your going to have trace from the jacket. You take that to a lab with a scraping and your going to get trace elements from the iron or whatever that is made of and your going to get copper in there as an element. All this jabber jaw lab stuff is total horse dung and unless you have a specific question and know how to approach the answer without polluting the results you got nothing.

I will bring a brandy new 20.00 Bill to the show and lay that on Dietrich's table and bet that is a bullet and that there is blood, and that is my bet and my opinion and I have shot more stuff over the years than many.

I dont think anyone in our days will dare to put a hole through a real Knight Cross market value over $10.000...thats certainly period done!!

[Flemming]

in the 50´s things weren't that expensive.
A family memeber of mine lost a SS Cap, because it was straped to the back of his bicycle.
But hey, that was only a cap he used to play with, and held no real value for him.
The same was with medals...so who knows what and when.

/Flemming