Announcement

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-27-2011, 03:28 PM

Thank you for your posting. However, there needs to be some correction:

- the Grand Cross was produced more than once and was either marked "800" or "800 L/12". All were produced by C.E. Juncker

- the cross shown as being in West Point is not in West Point. It is a fake. There is no GC in West Point.

- the Hartmann cross and the "diamonds" are fakes. The cross and the diamonds are in a private collection.

- the Juncker L/12 is a good one. Whether it belongs to Neufeld is beyond my knowledge.

- the swords are also genuine. However they show the typical frosting deterioration of a Klessheim piece and not that one of a worn resp. awarded one. The photograph of course shows an artist rendering of the swords.

Dietrich

**Sepp45** · 12-27-2011, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Thank you for your posting. However, there needs to be some correction:

- the Grand Cross was produced more than once and was either marked "800" or "800 L/12". All were produced by C.E. Juncker

- the cross shown as being in West Point is not in West Point. It is a fake. There is no GC in West Point.

- the Hartmann cross and the "diamonds" are fakes. The cross and the diamonds are in a private collection.

- the Juncker L/12 is a good one. Whether it belongs to Neufeld is beyond my knowledge.

- the swords are also genuine. However they show the typical frosting deterioration of a Klessheim piece and not that one of a worn resp. awarded one. The photograph of course shows an artist rendering of the swords.

Dietrich

How, many thanks Dietrich! I have a couple of questions. How come the one Hartamann gave to the Museum is a fake? The official website says otherwise..
And the Original GC, where is it?

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-27-2011, 03:42 PM

I don't know why the museum says so, but is for sure not the truth. There are a lot of internet websites which are telling not the truth - for whatever selfish, malicious or even innocent reason.

First of all, the real "diamonds'" look completely different and I have seen Hartmann's and know where they are and have also published them in my book. They have 100% provenance.

I do not know where the one awarded cross for Göring is. He certainly had more than one. Fact is, however, that more than one were made and that several genuine ones are in collections. This is nothing new.

Dietrich

**Sepp45** · 12-27-2011, 05:51 PM

Ok, I'll go on. Thanks to Dietrich for the excelente info. Please, make the propper corrections if needed.

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Goldenem Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten- Knight Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak leafs, swords and Diamonds.
Date of institution: December 29th, 1944
Awarded only once, to Stuka pilot Hans Rudel.
Markings: K

The decorations of the Stuka fighter ace, in the hands of Rudel's family.

War time photo of Herr Rudel, wearing his set of complete decorations.

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten - Knight Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleafs, swords and diamonds, awarded to Oberst Werner Molders, June 16th 1941.
Number awarded: 27 (Heer 11, Kriegsmarine 2, Luftwaffe 12, Waffen-SS 2)
Markings: K

Here we have the one awarded to Oberst Werner Mölders, on June 16th 1941.

The Great Luftwaffe Ace with his RK on the neck. 1941

Acording to the website "Ritterkruez.us" this set of Molders is in the hands of his family. Maybe Dietrich could give us some help on this.

And some aditional, also from "Ritterkruez.us" website.
The set of Diamonds awarded to Oberst Gordon Gollob.

Gollob "first types" diamonds.

Oberst Gollob.

Sources: http://www.ritterkreuz.us/1st-type-diamonds/#more-1276 http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1756

I'll come back with more soon.

**AlikN** · 12-28-2011, 02:21 AM

Wow! there are some very nice and rare items here and some like "The Rk is in the hands of the American Airpower Heritage Museum " . is a postwar Souval example.

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

....- the Grand Cross was produced more than once and was either marked "800" or "800 L/12". All were produced by C.E. Juncker .....

I wouldn't say that all war time Grand crosses were only produced by C.E. Juncker, there are other maker that made period Grand crosses, known are S&L - example of which was seen on their store display, C.F. Zimmermann GCs were found in that burned horde, L/13 cross and there is one more type maker of which is still unknown, all those were meant for retail, and if they had those made and displayed in their store fronts, must had some kind of permission to make and sell.

Some can say that those only period copies, but all of the C.E. Juncker's "800 L/12" marked GCs are nothing more than LDO copies and were never meant to be an award pieces, which is clearly marked L/12 meaning originally it was made for retail, but when sales were prohibited crosses were turned into PKZ and I don't think Goring was awarded with a L/12 piece.

I really don't get the assumption that only Juncker's GCs are original - how is LDO copy of one maker can be more original than LDO copy of an other maker, even if one allegedly the maker of an award type cross, picture of which I have never seen - "800" marked cross that would have all C.E. Juncker characteristics, btw the '800' marked cross that you are Dietrich referring to in your book is a S&L example and not a C.E.Juncker.

So if someone have a picture of real an award type 1939 Grand cross with only 800 mark and all the C.E.Juncker features, I would love to see it.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-28-2011, 09:15 AM

You know that I mean all "official awarded pieces" which in this case is a little bit awkward since only one was awarded. However, all the other ones which were stored at Klessheim with the very nice red presentation case (for possible future awarding) were all also Juncker, marked L/12. Here we have the same situation like we have with the L/12 marked Knights Crosses. Initially for retail, after the prohibition they were sent to the PKZ. Or they never made it so far since the red presentation cases are NOT LDO but rather ordered by the PKZ. Maybe Juncker shipped directly.
I certainly know about Souval (postwar) but I have not consciously seen any S&L. I have seen the so-called Zimmermann. For me they are (if proven) "made during the Third Reich"but not "award pieces".

.. how is LDO copy of one maker can be more original than LDO copy of an other maker, even if one allegedly the maker of an award type cross, picture of which I have never seen - "800" marked cross that would have all C.E. Juncker characteristics, btw the '800' marked cross that you are Dietrich referring to in your book is a S&L example and not a C.E.Juncker.

I would not know of such a case other than the L/12 Juncker RKs and the Zimmermann L/52 (which is extremely rare!!) and the L/50 Oaks were in all cases there are 800 (resp. 900) marked examples. So it is a question of a different marking of the same piece, not the marking on a unique piece.
Göring for sure got a "800" marked GC since at the time of the award there was no LDO and marked it was for sure. And he also got a Juncker, since all the ones found in Klessheim are Juncker and even the one in Doehle's book can be identified as such. The documents shown in Nimmergut's book are a clear evidence that Juncker was charged with the production and had them available already in March 1940.

In my book you mentioned I refer to the "800" marked piece by Juncker as the award piece (for above mentioned reasons) and - since I could not obtain a picture - referred the reader to the example shown in Gordon Williamson's book on page 443. The picture quality is not good enough for me to really determine what it is - I trusted the description that this is a Juncker GC based on the research of Mr. Williamson. Maybe I was wrong to do so ( and to say "without doubt" ....), maybe he was wrong in his research. One should ask Mr. Williamson for better pictures and where he got the cross from and if it is a Juncker or an S&L.

The features of a genuine GC are outlined in my book in detail and if there still is or are "800" GCs they can be easily identified. That they existed is without doubt true.

But you are right! I should have said "only official award piece" since there was a lot produced during the Third Reich which is not necessarily official.

Dietrich

**AlikN** · 12-28-2011, 12:30 PM

Here is a picture of 1939 Grand crosses from different makers,

1. L/12
2. restored Zimmerman
3. L/13
4.S&L
5.postwar Souval
6. unknown and I don't have a better picture at the moment, but it is visible that 'O' ring seats higher then on others.

Attached Files

1939s.jpg (188.4 KB, 1814 views)

**Sepp45** · 12-28-2011, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Alikn View Post

Here is a picture of 1939 Grand crosses from different makers,

1. L/12
2. restored Zimmerman
3. L/13
4.S&L
5.postwar Souval
6. unknown and I don't have a better picture at the moment, but it is visible that 'O' ring seats higher then on others.

Just amazing... Thanks Alikn for the photos!

**Sepp45** · 12-28-2011, 03:21 PM

I shall continue

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten
An unknown winner RK at the Svolvær Krigsminnemuseum in Norway. Could be fake?

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexand...en/5458464702/

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes Karl-Heinz Greve
The Knight Cross that once belonged to Luftwaffe pilot Karl Heinz Greve, sold a few years ago.

Karl-Heinz Greve RK awarded October 8th 1942.

Back.

Luftwaffe pilot Karl-Heinz Greve.

This grouping, along with some maps and personal belongins of Greve, were sold at an Online militaria website.

Source: http://www.leisuregalleries.com/

RitterKruez Des Eisernes Kreuzes
This Knight Cross is in the huge Kriegsmarine collection of a member (KM-Spain) of the Forum "Forosegundaguerra.com", in Spain.

Source: http://www.forosegundaguerra.com/vie...3626&start=180

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes
The website "Jackson Armory" is selling this RK, marked C.E. Junker
What do you think?

Source: http://www.jacksonarmory.com/ja/mili...l.php?id=9429#

Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes
This RK was sold at "Oakleaf militaria site", a few years ago.

Source: http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/095so4.html

Well, that is all for today.

Regards,
Sepp!

**Luis22** · 12-28-2011, 04:52 PM

Nice thread!!!!

**AlikN** · 12-28-2011, 05:31 PM

WOW! More great items!........

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

You know that I mean all "official awarded pieces" which in this case is a little bit awkward since only one was awarded. However, all the other ones which were stored at Klessheim with the very nice red presentation case (for possible future awarding) were all also Juncker, marked L/12. Here we have the same situation like we have with the L/12 marked Knights Crosses. Initially for retail, after the prohibition they were sent to the PKZ. Or they never made it so far since the red presentation cases are NOT LDO but rather ordered by the PKZ. Maybe Juncker shipped directly....

It is understandable with L/12 marked Knights crosses, since some amount was made and needed to be utilized somehow, but with Grand crosses I think is a little different, usually not many recipients so not a great number produced and if someone else would win GC in ww2 PKZ would have an other award type cross just like Goring received, they probably ordered more then one of those. When L/12s were turned to PKZ in my opinion those were planed to be used not for awarding, but as a replacement pieces if there would be more recipients in need of a extra pieces and sales are prohibited only place to get one is at PKZ. So in my opinion L/12 800 marked crosses can't be called an official award piece, since one like that was never used to award, it is from the maker, but not the ONE.

**Sepp45** · 12-28-2011, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Luis22 View Post

Nice thread!!!!

Thanks Luis! I'm glad you like it.

Some more:

The excelent website "The Marshall Baton" shows some RK's, mainly in the hands of private collections.

Generalfeldmarschall Von Manstein RK - Knight Cross awarded to Field Marshall Erich a Von Manstein.
(Private collection of Ron Molinari)

Von Manstein, circa 1942.

Grobadmiral Karl Donitz - RK and Decorations of Karl Donitz
(Private collection of Ron Molinari).

Donitz, circa 1943.

Generalleutnant Erich Schopper RK
The RK of Erich Schopper, visible in the neck. Private Collection of Ron Molinari.

Erich Schopper

Unkown Generalleutant RK

The RK, in the Heavy decorated uniform. Posible Von Dawans, acording to the website.

Generalleutant Heinz Greiner's RK

The uniforme and RK with Oakleafs that once belonged to Greiner.

Generalleutant Eugen Koning RK
The RK awarded to Eugen Koning (also Oakleafs in the War)

Waffen SS Gruppenfuhrer und Generalleutnant Max Simon RK with Oakleafs
This tunic and RK with Oakleafs is in the hands of a private collector.

Waffen SS Obergruppenfuhrer Georg Keppler RK
This RK and Uniform belonged to Georg Keppler.

Source: http://www.themarshalsbaton.com/Framepage.htm

Regards!

**münster** · 12-28-2011, 06:11 PM

Hey, the jackson armory rk makes another appearance!

**Douglas 5** · 12-28-2011, 06:20 PM

Amazing thread and pictures !!

Douglas

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