Junckers 800 "dot" RK

[Dietrich Maerz]

My '800' was awarded in '40 and is even lighter. With the loop it only weighs 30.65 gr.
Pascal

Pascal,

is you core magnetic or is it Zinc? With 30.65 gr. It must be Zinc!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Brian, there's no such thing as a "late war" zink Juncker!

These were very early war and prior to the LdO.

Dave

[Pascal H.]

Pascal,

is you core magnetic or is it Zinc? With 30.65 gr. It must be Zinc!

Dietrich

The core on my early Juncker is magnetic.

Pascal

[Dietrich Maerz]

So where are the missing (average) 3.38 gr. coming from?

Just to put this into perspective. It's about 10% of a 'regular' cross. The swastika with a size of 9.7 mm across, and 2.25 mm wide arm, about 1.8 mm high weighs in iron about 1.2 gr. So you are short 2.8 swastikas?? The core must be thinner! Is it 3.8 mm thick?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Brian, there's no such thing as a "late war" zink Juncker!

These were very early war and prior to the LdO.

Dave

OK, just seems odd to me that when times were 'good' they used zinc for their most important award.

[Pascal H.]

So where are the missing (average) 3.38 gr. coming from?

Just to put this into perspective. It's about 10% of a 'regular' cross. The swastika with a size of 9.7 mm across, and 2.25 mm wide arm, about 1.8 mm high weighs in iron about 1.2 gr. So you are short 2.8 swastikas?? The core must be thinner! Is it 3.8 mm thick?

Dietrich

It would be interested to know what you mean with a 'regular' cross?

Pascal

[Dietrich Maerz]

As Chris said, "normal" "regular" "whatever" Juncker L/12 or Lazy 2 weight about 34 g, invariably. See above.


Dietrich

[Pascal H.]

I am sorry but I think this discussion about the weight is going nowhere.
I think we all agree that early Junckers are lighter then late Junckers.

As for what one would call regular I don’t know if there is any difference between the early unmarked, 800 dot, 800 or the lazy 2 or l/12. As long as they are all real Junckers I think they are all regular Junckers.

Pascal

[Dietrich Maerz]

Pascal,


why do you think this is going nowhere? Facts collected so far:

Late Juncker, magnetic : around 34 g
Early Juncker, magnetic : around 30 g

Same core (with yours), same beading (I guess). Difference 10% in weight. Don't you think this is something worth while investigating?

And I'm still saying that the numerals of Pieter's cross are different and I throw into the discussion that Junckers had a diffferent core in the early days.

Maybe it's going nowhere. For myself, I would like to know where the weight difference is coming from.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

That has always been the "beauty" of Juncker Knight's Crosses...however slight the variation one can ALWAYS tell it's Juncker.

Dave

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentlemen,

if some people think my posting is an attack on the regular, beautifull or whatever Junckers, I sincerely apologize!

I just thought in my simple mind that if you have two Junckers, both magnetic, one type weights 34 g and one type 10% less I might - for the sake of clarity - call one of the type in a profane way "regular".

So the question still stands:

- same core with Pieters early Juncker?
- weight difference?

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

That has always been the "beauty" of Juncker Knight's Crosses...however slight the variation one can ALWAYS tell it's Juncker.

Dave

Dave,

10% in weight difference is not slight! As I said, it amounts to 2.8 iron swastikas missing!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

DM the weight difference could be attributed to many things including density of the core, material used in it, filing of the core for fit and filing of the frame. The material used in the frame is also an area that will cause a difference in weight...different grades of silver...plated etc. The loops will differ slightly in weight and I've seen them range from 1.35 grms to 1.70grms!

I think 'weight' is NOT a serious consideration when determining originality of a Juncker cross because there are so many other 'keys' to look for.

Dave

[ChrisJ]

Interesting

Mmmm... this is getting interesting.
I always assumed that the difference in weight was due to a slight variation in the material used for the cores.... but I'll get some calipers out and take some measurements, but I suspect that the cores of (say) L/12 and early will be the same.
As an aside, there are three distinct groups of RK to KVK (with swords) marked 900/1 from the same dies which are identical in measurements and thicknesses but which have up to an unaccountable 3g difference in weight. The only thing that I could suggest in this later case was that the unknown 100 parts of the material are different.
Incidenlty, please also remember that there are also "light" versions of the K&Q crosses...which again, I have accounted for by slighly differing core material, or does someone have any other theories ?

[Dave Kane]

I can't get to it from (this) computer but I believe there is a non-magnetic and possibly unmarked Juncker cross on Kai Winkler's site. With it is a letter from Detlev or Geisler or both and I think is indicates weights etc. If someone can pull the info. it might be worth posting!

Dave