S&l ??

[Robin Lumsden]

It's just my opinion, based on as much as I have been able to learn (after earnestly trying), that there were very, very, very few copy or "newly-made" badges and medals until the late 50's and early 60's, and that the "explosion" came even after that.

I agree with that.

For the reasons above, I don't think S&L or any other legitimate factory would have made any decoration with a swastika between 1949 and 1955.

After 1955...............different story.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Ok, I give up! I throw my original material from 1953 out of the window and bow to the new revelations!
Continue to assume and doubt till it fits! I rather stay with original material and evidence.

[speedytop]

Hi,

Leroy:
"It's just my opinion, based on as much as I have been able to learn (after earnestly trying), that there were very, very, very few copy or "newly-made" badges and medals until the late 50's and early 60's, and that the "explosion" came even after that."

Robin:
"For the reasons above, I don't think S&L or any other legitimate factory would have made any decoration with a swastika between 1949 and 1955."

You also believe in fairy tales?

Unbelievable.

Kind regards from an old collector from Germany
Uwe

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
Don't give up yet. I have seen what you put in your book about early activities. No doubt Mr. Schiffer was a crook and actually started having medals newly made. The question is WHEN. Sure, in 1953 he would send people down the road 30 miles to S&L. But for WHAT? To get a left-over real one (or one assembled entirely from leftover parts)or pick up a newly made (i.e. freshly made parts) fake? Sometime in the mid-50's, he was able to get new ones. Was it 1955? 1954? !956? What I have seen published does not answer that question.
Regards,
Leroy

[Leroy]

Uwe,
Please share with us your information. We need to know it if possible. Is there information which proves that newly made badges and medals were being made "from the ground up" before the mid-50's, using all totally new made parts, or were these assembled using leftover parts?
Best,
Leroy

P.S. I have NO doubt that badges and medals were being assembled from leftover parts before 1955.

[Robin Lumsden]

Look, I'm not trying to upset anyone here.

I'm certainly not questioning the research done by Dietrich or anyone else.

All I'm saying is that it was illegal to manufacture decorations with the swastika after 1949...............so if S&L or any other big factory did so, they were flaunting the law, with all the risks that entails.

Maybe they did flaunt the law.

I'm sure a few 'unofficial' makers and fakers did.

[Robin Lumsden]

Unbelievable.

Why? It was an offence...............and I really don't think that big firms (who wanted to remain in business) would have risked producing these things.

Different story after 1955.

Please tell us what you know that would dispute this.

We are still puzzled about these boards.

[Brian S]

Look, I'm not trying to upset anyone here.

I'm certainly not questioning the research done by Dietrich or anyone else.

All I'm saying is that it was illegal to manufacture decorations with the swastika after 1949...............so if S&L or any other big factory did so, they were flaunting the law, with all the risks that entails.

Maybe they did flaunt the law.

I'm sure a few 'unofficial' makers and fakers did.

All you had to do was walk into an antique store in the 60's and beyond, ask the owner if he had any WWII stuff and it came right out from beneath the counter. Illegal, yes, but sold nonetheless. Munich and Hamburg and Frankfurt my experience.

None of it was fake! But much of it was newly made.

[Dietrich Maerz]

All I'm saying is that it was illegal to manufacture decorations with the swastika after 1949...............so if S&L or any other big factory did so, they were flaunting the law, with all the risks that entails.

I am absolutely convinced that it is FAR more dangerous to produce anything with a swastika in Germany today then it was between 1946 and 1968! And I am not kidding!

The 50's and 60's were a time were it was absolutely normal to have a public office with a good solid Third Reich background. There are numerous examples and It would have been extremely tough to find a prosecutor and a judge to really go after such a "Kavaliersdelikt". Just browse the old newspapers!

Remember, the Ministerpräsident of the state of Baden-Würtemberg, Hans Filbinger, was a former Navy judge who ordered the death sentence on a young navy guy, who was shot 16. March 1945. When this all came out in 1978 he stepped down ...

So you think that in the early years the factories were checked ...? Toady they would, that is 100% sure!

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
We're not talking about German law in the late 40's and early 50's. We're talking about the rules laid down by the occupying powers, who controlled whether or not you did business, whether or not you received raw materials, whether or not you got electricity......Who would want to irritate the very people who had just won a war against the Nazi's and executed several prominent ones?
Look, there is no doubt that there was a flourishing black market after the war and you could probably get what you wanted, and get away with anything you wanted, for a price. Certainly, souvenirs were bought and sold. But is it your actual conclusion that S&L actually and openly newly manufactured, from the ground up, Nazi regalia in the years before 1955? I would readily concede the surreptitious assembly (and finishing) of existing parts (certainly there were lots of those around) for a limited market, but do you really believe standard manufacture was resumed? If so, where is the proof for that? I submit to you that this photo proves that there was access to RK's, but does not establish whether they were wartime, made from parts or newly manufactured.
You know me well enough to know that I also want the real facts to be known, whichever way they fall, and that there is no personal difficulty here at all. Your research is excellent and would lead any reasonable person to understand that there was trafficking in German awards early after the war. That is not disputed at all. Nor is it disputed that, at some point, S&L DID resume actual new manufacture. Further, people like Schiffer maintained (falsely) for years that all the material was wartime. Sedlatzek was a bit better, acknowledging (at least in his catalogs from after 1955) that some of his items were wartime, but many more were new.
I am raising these points solely because of the "boards" which started this thread and our effort to understand whether or not the items which appear on them are more likely to be all real wartime stock, leftover assembled pieces, or newly manufactured fakes.
You have certainly stated the absolute truth that Germany today is a society which has leaned so far in the direction of political correctness that it has actual fallen over into real intolerance.
Best Regards,
Leroy

[Dietrich Maerz]

We're talking about the rules laid down by the occupying powers, who controlled whether or not you did business, whether or not you received raw materials, whether or not you got electricity......Who would want to irritate the very people who had just won a war against the Nazi's and executed several prominent ones?

Regarding the history books I have that all stopped in May 1949 when the Federal republic of Germany was founded. I cannot find anything that states that police power, local government and all that jazz was handled by the French, British or Americans after that date. The only thing the 'Occupation Powers" did was approve, guide to approval or disapprove the laws which were discussed and voted on in the separate states and the Bundestag. The German state had police power - and that was exactly what the Allied wanted: all self governing free state.

No American raids against illegal swastika production! And also no German ones!

[Leroy]

But again, do we KNOW that the material in the early days was real, made from parts, or new?

What were things like from 1945 to 1949? What about "de-nazification" (which was treated very seriously)?

[Dietrich Maerz]

...but do you really believe standard manufacture was resumed? If so, where is the proof for that? I submit to you that this photo proves that there was access to RK's, but does not establish whether they were wartime, made from parts or newly manufactured.

I certainly can't say that in general but I can say it for the S&L B-Type RK (and so can you). S&L either had a ton of cores and frames (in silver and non-silver, cores in zinc and iron) before the 8th of May in stock (I don't think so...) or they stamped them after the war - in silver 800, in silver 935 and in Neusilber! And assembled them! And I am absolutely sure that's what they did!

Or do you really believe they had all the post war types on stock before 8th of May? And even if they had all the parts (which is already unbelievable tough to believe) - they assembled after the war and that makes it a fake! And - it must be said - if they used pre-May 8 1945 parts after that date - the product should have been a 945-4 or ... an 800-4 ... or both!

Everything that was made and/or assembled after May 8th 1945 is a fake. I don't think anybody wants to stretch (sure, some dealer would love to ...) the post war denomination to maybe 1953 since by then maybe the original parts or people or machines were no longer used..... The May 8 day is a stupid day but it needs to be used. Manufactured or assembled on May 9 is a post war fake!

And yes, I really do believe they resumed manufacturing! Honestly truly! And I also think I have proven that with the B-Type progression!

[Dietrich Maerz]

What about "de-nazification" (which was treated very seriously)?

Now you are REALLY kidding, yes?

Denazification in the American sense was taking as much souveniers with swastikas as possible. Sure, there were the Nuremberg trial (and rightly so!) but that was not denazification! Check how many or what percentage of official posts down to little town were held by former party members (which were - after a short interview and a small fine - declare a "Mitlaeufer" or follower). Why? Because all FOUR allied nations realized very early that either that will be done or they will never ever have a German state in the future. The real denazification of Germany started when the people died or retired and when the 1968 'revolution' brought new thinking into the same old society which still existed after the war.

And you think that a meager company (or 10) in Lüdenscheid was subject to denazification? Maybe in an process that lasted 2-3 days, yes. After that- back to normal. Which was at that time: survival! Trading souveniers with food....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is the "atonement assesment" for one of the relatives of my wife. He was a party member from 1942 - 45 and that did cost him RM 300.- in 1947! And then he was de-nazified! He really was no Nazi - he was what most of the Germans were at that time - a follower.
But in that way a lot of real Nazis were also white washed! How? They had good friends who vouched for them. And he then vouched for the friends and they all vouched for more. How could the American or Brits put a whole people an trial? So they had to pay and the case was closed! And regarding the official party line in East Germany all 'Nazis" were in the West anyway! The whole of east germany was full of communist resistance fighters!