S&l ??

[Leroy]

First, I think you certainly have proved that with SOME "B" types!

Again, I have NO doubt that S&L did resume new manufacture AT SOME POINT.

WHEN do you think this happened? (And I have no quarrel that something assembled after May 8, 1945 is a fake. Even though it may be made from entirely real parts, it is still not an award produced for the authorizing government.) Even though you may be right about the cut-off being 1949 about Allied control (although I doubt it was an entirely "hands-off" affair) that still does not tell us about 1945-49.

At some point, S&L certainly started re-stamping frames using the "B" die. I don't for a second believe that all those early '57 crosses were made using wartime frames. There is nothing, however, to say that there was not a large quantity of finished pieces and parts left after the war. That was, as I pointed out in another post, the case with daggers in Solingen and I have no doubt it was the case with medals and badges in Ludenschied.

So, where are we here?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Where we are? We are now at a point where you need to say that soldering frames together which were stamped before May 8 1945 is already "resuming" production! Since that is what it is! And the result was and is a post war fake!
Same applies to soldering a pin to a stamped badge....

[Leroy]

Where we are? We are now at a point where you need to say that soldering frames together which were stamped before May 8 1945 is already "resuming" production! Since that is what it is! And the result was and is a post war fake!

Soldering existing frames postwar IS the creation of a fake and we AGREE on this! STAMPING out new frames (or new cores, or new eagles or new wreaths, or new whatever) is the "resumption of production". A fine distinction to you, perhaps, but still a very valid one.

But I DO personally say that a piece ASSEMBLED postwar from existing parts is a fake! The parts are real, the design is real, but the piece was not completed for the authorizing government.

But it is the perfect fake (unless the assembly materials and methods have changed dramatically) and we will never know.

We walk a fine line here. Change countries for a moment. I have four damaged or incomplete Navy Crosses, all made during the war. From them, I take 1 good ribbon, 1 good pin assembly, 1 good suspension ring and 1 good cross planchet. I put them all together, solder the ring with period solder, and sew on the pin assembly with wartime thread and in the correct method. Do I have a real Navy Cross? Many people would say "Yes". In actual fact, it IS real, but it is "unofficial". You will remember, my friend, the little "dust-up" when you said that a piece manufactured during the war, but not delivered to the PKZ, was not "official". Semantics is a wonderful thing....and affords us hours of entertainment.

[Leroy]

I don't know how, but I somehow missed your posts #'s 284 and 285.

The very fact that your in-law was even noticed in an individual capacity as a former party member tells me that this was no 2-3 day process all around. A manufacturing concern like S&L, whose only reason for existence was the creation of Nazi symbols, would not have escaped an enhanced level of scrutiny.

What would have happened, after your in-law was "de-nazified", if it had been discovered that every Saturday he and his friends were re-printing Nazi pamplets for sale/distribution? Would this not have been considered "glorification" of the Nazi movement?

No one claims that any Allied government was perfect, or that former Nazi bureaucrats did not resume bureaucratic roles so that there would be some form of local coherency, but I think you are making a mistake to characterize the "de-nazification" program as a lightweight or flippant affair to those charged with its implementation. Americans (who, remember, did not "end up" with Ludenschied after the war) were a lot more than just souvenir-crazed cowboys. The British, as I understand it, were even more serious about this, having had their own cities bombed and civilians killed by aircraft and rockets with swastikas on their tail fins. But perhaps Robin is more qualified to comment on this, should he be so inclined...

[Sal Williams]

Is it being proposed (as it seems) that these boards are the benchmark for originality? The Rosetta stone if you will?

[Robin Lumsden]

The British, as I understand it, were even more serious about this, having had their own cities bombed and civilians killed by aircraft and rockets with swastikas on their tail fins. But perhaps Robin is more qualified to comment on this, should he be so inclined...

Yes. The British took de-Nazification pretty seriously, at least during the first few years.

The main reason was their liberation of Belsen.

[Leroy]

Is it being proposed (as it seems) that these boards are the benchmark for originality? The Rosetta stone if you will?

No.

We don't know for sure yet that the planchets of all the badges there were actually wartime production. So far, all the ones we have been able to obtain detail on certainly appear to be, including some rare ones. The REPORTED circumstance of the acquisition of these boards points to their originality, especially if it can be determined that no new actual stamping of planchets occured in the very first years after the war. As you pointed out earlier, there COULD be one fantasy badge among all the real ones, but then the questions would have to be asked "why?" and "what are the odds?", especially since boards of this type, obtained from vets, have not previously contained fake planchets. The possible addition of pins postwar, if proven, would make these badges (as a "completed entity") technically "fake" to some, but that would do nothing to destroy the inherent originality of the planchet itself.

I still agree that the BEST evidence would be a CRISP, DETAILED wartime photo showing the badge (whether SK or APB) actually worn. We may never have this, especially if there were only a few made.

As things stand now, I would personally be happy to buy the SK shown, but at a lower price (as Bob suggested) than that of a standard, known real, bronze w/o swords. Later on (if that photo is found, or if these boards were definitively shown to have been produced right after the war and we know that no actual new stampings of planchets occured in that period)) I would be very happy I did. Otherwise, I would have a nice curiosity for my collection.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have to come back to the de-nazification thing. First of all the process for each normal German individual was maybe 2-3 days - not the whole process.

I also don't think that the Americans and British did a bad job in the important areas of de-nazification: war criminals, political restructuring, human rights, .... But I humbly submit that they didn't care about a factory of maybe 10 people who soldered or stamped a few souvenier pieces which were traded on the black market. As long as they didn't advertise the coming of the Fourth Reich!

And even if one could say that this did not happen before May 1949 - ok, so what. That makes the board story even less believable. Because then it was made after 1949. Becuae you two insist that they couldn't been made in 45/46 because nobody would dare touching something with a swastika!

I have four damaged or incomplete Navy Crosses, all made during the war. From them, I take 1 good ribbon, 1 good pin assembly, 1 good suspension ring and 1 good cross planchet. I put them all together, solder the ring with period solder, and sew on the pin assembly with wartime thread and in the correct method. Do I have a real Navy Cross? Many people would say "Yes". In actual fact, it IS real, but it is "unofficial". You will remember, my friend, the little "dust-up" when you said that a piece manufactured during the war, but not delivered to the PKZ, was not "official". Semantics is a wonderful thing....and affords us hours of entertainment.

It is not semantics. It is a question of "point in time". Your Navy cross is a fake because it was MADE later and by someone who had no official business to do so. The little "dust-up" was at least (IMHO) made during the correct time and therefore just cannot be a fake by definition. "Official - unofficial" and "real-fake" are two completely different things.

[Leroy]

And even if one could say that this did not happen before May 1949 - ok, so what. That makes the board story even less believable. Because then it was made after 1949. Becuae you two insist that they couldn't been made in 45/46 because nobody would dare touching something with a swastika!

Lots of swastikas were "touched". The question is: were they newly made in 1945,46, etc.?

[Dietrich Maerz]

You say "No" and I say "Yes".

And if 'made' means assembled, soldered, finished, painted in addition to stamping, forging, deburring, ... I say even more so "YES".

They were dragged out of storage to be traded with the soldiers - and that was NOT the purpose they were made for. They were made for to be awarded to soldiers.

[Leroy]

You say "No" and I say "Yes".

And if 'made' means assembled, soldered, finished, painted in addition to stamping, forging, deburring, ... I say even more so "YES".

They were dragged out of storage to be traded with the soldiers - and that was NOT the purpose they were made for. They were made for to be awarded to soldiers.

All I can say is that Robin and I have a perfectly valid, and very real, reason (the Allied Commission) why new manufacture (the actual creation of new parts) would not have happened in the period May 8, 1945 to (at least) 1949. After that, an open field...

[Dietrich Maerz]

You know, it is also not allowed to kill people, .....

Just because there was a law does not mean that it was obeyed. Have you ever seen the news reels of the hundreds of people (including occupation forces) trading everything on the black market in Berlin and other big German cities? That was also completely illegal!

[Don D.]

Actually there was a General Order from SHAEF HQ against fraternizing with germans at all. Needless to say, none of the above could have happened unless that order was disobeyed.

[Leroy]

NO ONE disputes that items were traded on the Black Market.

NO ONE disputes that occupying soldiers had interaction with the German civilians they saw every day.

What IS disputed is that actual new manufacture of Nazi badges was recommenced before 1949. It is a LONG way from buying a board on a street corner to having a factory actually re-start its equipment (some of it not small, either) and have it start stamping out new badges. We know that companies like Lauer re-started limited production to produce insignia for American units, but is there any evidence whatsoever that they started cranking out Nazi badges at the same time? No. Same with the companies in Wuppertal. Did they create new SS cufftitles? No. Same with companies in Solingen (they made knives and forks, not Nazi daggers)(even though they had lots of leftover
pieces and parts, later discovered by Jim Atwood and exploited for all they were worth).

[Don D.]

How much left over parts for awards do you think were laying around? Since companies would receive and fill orders why would they maintain a huge stock of parts, especially when they received word to halt production in Feb/Mar timeframe?

From the pictures I've seen not all of the equipment was huge nor complicated. Some presses were even hand operated/powered.