Announcement

**Leroy** · 10-21-2008, 07:52 PM

Tom,
That is excellent work and very informative! If there is anyone who could tell about these, it would be you.
The fact that these are all by different makers, but all from Ludenschied, tends to bolster the belief that these boards were assembled in that town (at least as of right now!).
Regards,
Leroy

P.S. Having studied so many catch base plates and hinges, do you have any thoughts about those on the Anti-Partisan badge?

**Thomas Durante** · 10-21-2008, 08:31 PM

Hi Gentry,

The APB is not a badge I have studied really at all, but I can offer some general observations.

The first would be the catch. It looks like it may be the "coat hanger" shape that was exclusively used by S&L and can be on their EK1s, GABs and some of their CCCs (shown here). If it is that shape, then it stands to reason that its a good sign that it was produced wartime. While we cannot exclude the possibility that the catch was also produced postwar, this catch is most certainly wartime as it is found on wartime badges that match die characteristics, finish, hardware, etc. to their EK1s, GABs & CCCs. Plus, I have NEVER seen this type of catch used on a 1957 award.

The second observation is the pin. The pin reminds me of what I consider an early, post war produced S&L CCC. This CCC shown was made on the same wartime S&L die, but is much thinner than its wartime counterparts, the finish is different, the backplate material is different, the crimps are different (and match 57 CCCs) and the hardware is all completely different than wartime S&L CCCs. All these differences lead me to believe that this type of CCC was produced early postwar by S&L, despite it having all the correct die characteristics of the wartime CCCs. With all that said, the thick needle pin on the APB remind me of this post-war CCC.

Also, the small little block hinge on the APB reminds me more of 57 badges, rather than a wartime S&L hinge. On wartime S&l barrel hinges, you will see fine milling lines on the barrels of the hinge, but on the 57 hinges, you really don't see these. That is what I am speaking of.

I know these 2 observations seem to contradict eachother, but that is what I can offer.

Tom

Attached Files

S&L-1,1-Catch.jpg (79.4 KB, 268 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 10-21-2008, 08:32 PM

Postwar S&L CCC

Attached Files

S&L-1-Reverse C.jpg (46.1 KB, 267 views)

**Leroy** · 10-21-2008, 10:25 PM

Tom,
Thanks again! Those are really excellent observations.
This thread presents a great opportunity to study the gray areas that are very seldomly looked at and your approach is what we need more of.
Is there anyone out there who can "capture" images from the "emedals" site? As I mentioned earlier, there are some pretty good shots there of the boards,broken down by segments, which give good views of (at least) the front of many of the badges. I think Don Doering has already mentioned that the PAB's look (from the front) like Assman's (another Ludenschied company). If the same could be done for the Navy and Air Force material by other knowledgeable people, it would be very helpful.
So I suppose the "score" so far is:
3 RK's -Type "A" by S&L -Believed by Dave-B, Dietrich (and certainly most other people) to be real;
2 DK's - Believed to be real (if you believe S&L made them during the war)(and apparently not everyone is in 100% agreement yet on this);
1 set of Oakleaves - a commercial (and almost certainly "unofficial"
set) - probably period;
1 set of Oakleaves & Swords - again, almost certainly an "unofficial" commercial set, but proven by photographic evidence to have been worn wartime - probably period;
1 CCC by S&L -real;
1 CCC by GWL - real;
1 CCC by FLL - real;
1 APB - Questionable. Catch matches S&L wartime production and not known to have been used on '57 awards. Hinge and pin on this badge remind Tom more of hardware used on S&L early postwar re-strike CCC's than the hardware he has observed on wartime S&L CCC's. APB's are very controversial badges. (Where is Bob Hritz? Hope he hasn't wandered off into the desert and been attacked by some godawful big tarantula!)
Again, so far, everything noted is consistant with Ludenschied manufacturers...but there is still a LONG way to go with these boards.
Once more: Thanks, Tom!
Regards,
Leroy

**Dave-B** · 10-22-2008, 02:55 AM

Speaking of the PABs, I did actually take a quick obv/rev shot of the bronze one...

Attached Files

16.JPG (65.0 KB, 258 views)

**Dave-B** · 10-22-2008, 02:58 AM

The reverse photo is not too clear (my apologies

) but to my eye it looks like an S&L (not that I know much about PABs).

Attached Files

17.JPG (53.1 KB, 257 views)

**Sal Williams** · 10-22-2008, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View Post

That's why it's important to get other peoples' opinions on the other badges on these boards.

If all the other badges are deemed to be OK, then the chances are that the Spanish Cross is good as well.................with all that that entails.

If there is at least one other fake on the boards, then the legitimacy of the Spanish Cross and the rest must also come into question.

By the way................does this photo remind you of anything?

I have to disagree Robin, that is like saying that if you buy a collection and all are real but 1 has problems it must be good because all the rest were. We all know that theory does not work.

**Sal Williams** · 10-22-2008, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

The lack of a silver mark does not bother me (although this cross COULD have one stamped on the reverse body) (which we have not yet seen) rather than the pin. In fact, it was more usual for the silver mark, if present, to be on the body than the pin on SK's, in my opinion, and not all were real silver.

The presence of the "4" is the curious thing. If the cross is a fake (and I will believe it could be if other pieces on the boards are as well) then the number means nothing. If it is real, it might tend to support the idea that PKZ numbers were used earlier than believed.

That would make PKZ numbers used in1939 at the latest.

**Thomas Durante** · 10-22-2008, 05:24 AM

Hi guys,

The PAB is not an Assmann, but rather an original GWL. Still consistent with Ludenscheid theme.

Tom

**Don D.** · 10-22-2008, 05:24 AM

The pab shown by Dave is a GWL I believe.

**Dave-B** · 10-22-2008, 06:35 AM

Told you I didn't know much about PABs

**Don D.** · 10-22-2008, 06:49 AM

Neither do I anymore.

**Giel VW** · 10-22-2008, 08:10 AM

That's indeed a GWL Dave and Don

One of the rarer PAB's imo.

**Robin Lumsden** · 10-22-2008, 11:14 AM

How about this for an off-the-wall theory.

If these badges were assembled from original stock parts c.1945-46, for 'souvenir' purposes, stock pins pre-stamped with the PKZ numbers could have been attached to unfinished stocks of earlier badges, to finish them off.

That could explain the '4' stamped pins on apparently early badges.

Could also explain to some extent the pin anomaly with the Guerrilla Warfare Badge.

Just a theory, but plausible.

As an aside, but in a similar vein, the photo below shows a DK that I've had for many years.................it's a Deschler, but the pin is stamped '20'. There's no sign of the pin ever having been replaced.

Attached Files

DK Gold 1.jpg (83.6 KB, 226 views)

**Robin Lumsden** · 10-22-2008, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Sal Williams View Post

I have to disagree Robin, that is like saying that if you buy a collection and all are real but 1 has problems it must be good because all the rest were. We all know that theory does not work.

In this case, though, Sal...................the boards were apparently in the possession of a British serviceman who brought them back shortly after the end of the war and have been untouched ever since. They went from his family to the auction, I believe.

Announcement

S&l ??

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread