Originally posted by Leroy
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Originally posted by Leroy View PostWell, I suppose if I had access to every collection in the world, I might see a few.....
I personally don't have one and have never seen one.
I think that might be one of the reasons why these boards are so interesting.
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Originally posted by Sal Williams View PostI hope Bob H will chime in, his experience is always an asset even when it doesn't go with popular thought.
I just love your approach. The above is your quote from Post 108 in this thread. Well, Bob did "chime in" and advised us that 1.) he had purchased "dozens" of these boards from vets who brought them back from the war, 2.) these boards were assembled by people in Ludenschied in the immediate postwar period from leftover factory stock and sold or traded for food, and 3.) he had NEVER seen a fake badge on one of these boards.
Guess that didn't help you.
I have offered my THEORY (and that is all it is) as to the genesis of the SK on these boards. I believe it was a "jump the gun" model produced using the wrong style eagle and in a class that was not authorized, S&L assuming that the all models would be with and w/o swords. IF that was the case, the SK would HAVE to be an early piece. I only mentioned the possibility of a pin being added later (as did others here) because Bob also mentioned that, while the planchets were always real, he could not say if they had been "finished" before being put on the boards. Some of the many badges he had seen were lacking pins and had been sewn to the boards.
I have not gone off "half-cocked" as you have suggested, in the discussion of the possible mistaken production of an SK with a "down-tail". Instead, if anyone has done so, it is you. But this Forum does not need any more personal "observations", so I will stop there.
Again, I invite others to look at the cross which started the horrible thread I posted the link to. Our discussion here, if it is to remain serious and logical, should be of the PIECE, not the people.
Leroy
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Originally posted by Leroy View PostSal,
I just love your approach. The above is your quote from Post 108 in this thread. Well, Bob did "chime in" and advised us that 1.) he had purchased "dozens" of these boards from vets who brought them back from the war, 2.) these boards were assembled by people in Ludenschied in the immediate postwar period from leftover factory stock and sold or traded for food, and 3.) he had NEVER seen a fake badge on one of these boards.
Guess that didn't help you.
I have offered my THEORY (and that is all it is) as to the genesis of the SK on these boards. I believe it was a "jump the gun" model produced using the wrong style eagle and in a class that was not authorized, S&L assuming that the all models would be with and w/o swords. IF that was the case, the SK would HAVE to be an early piece. I only mentioned the possibility of a pin being added later (as did others here) because Bob also mentioned that, while the planchets were always real, he could not say if they had been "finished" before being put on the boards. Some of the many badges he had seen were lacking pins and had been sewn to the boards.
I have not gone off "half-cocked" as you have suggested, in the discussion of the possible mistaken production of an SK with a "down-tail". Instead, if anyone has done so, it is you. But this Forum does not need any more personal "observations", so I will stop there.
Again, I invite others to look at the cross which started the horrible thread I posted the link to. Our discussion here, if it is to remain serious and logical, should be of the PIECE, not the people.
Leroy
About Bob, I like to hear what he has to say and I respect him a great deal but I don't think he is God. Any info he gives out I add to the pro side of a debate but it is not the final word for me. I was very much hoping to hear what he thinks of the SK but he did not comment on it specifically.
You go on to say that other badge collectors are "red faced" because they are wrong (that is the clear implication) and these badges are all originals now.
That is all half cocked. That is not how I think one should set about determining originality.
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A post war assembled board from parts and pieces of various manufacturers does not solid proof make. Post war when, 1945, 46, or two years ago? Just how many SCs were laying around after the war? Perhaps S&L had to start making them to fill these boards/souvenier hunter demand. It seems to me one theory is as good as another at this point.pseudo-expert
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Originally posted by Sal Williams View PostYou have a whole post dedicated to; these boards represent originals and now folks must prove anything on them is not. Your burden of proof post not mine.
"Preponderence of the evidence" means (to use an American football analogy employed in law school to teach this stuff) that these boards have made it at least one inch past the 50 yard line on the "field of evidence" as to their originality. Bob Hritz's comments, alone, and even more so when coupled with the appearance of 2 rare (i.e. not many around) GWL badges, would carry them this far. So far, the only item really in dispute as to time period is that sole SK and, except for the presence of those eagles, no one has been able to say what's wrong with it. (Don't use the pin unless you are prepared to prove that the PKZ number absolutely could not be there.) Granted, it would be very nice to see more photos (and, as you may recall, I have been practically begging for these from the start). Why shouldn't the burden of proof "shift" (as it would in any courtroom in America)? After all, this Forum is very often a courtroom for disputed items. Could it be that you don't want the burden to shift because you can't challenge the evidence so far before us except by your own OPINION that such a badge could not possibly exist?
Do you honestly expect a badge, IF it was made by mistake and (very probably) in limited quantity because it WAS a mistake, to show up in period photographs or reference books (or, for that matter, collections)? There are LOTS of poor copies using this style eagle, but they all have some features about them (OTHER than the eagles) which give them away. What "gives away" this badge? Further, do you honestly believe that some one "planted" this ONE badge on these boards just to fool us a half century later?
Fact: The institution of a cross for veterans of the war in Spain was discussed in the trade and publicly well before the badge was actually awarded (just as, on a grander scale, the Grand Cross was discussed and copies actually made and put on display before it was awarded, to the irritation of the government). I don't own the copies of "Uniformenmarkt" or "Swert und Spaten" where this occured, but I have seen them, as have others. Maybe Dietrich has some. (I have not asked him.)
Fact: The transition of the Luftwaffe eagle from "down-tail" version to
"swept-tail" version occurred during this period. When LW forces went to Spain, their eagle was the "down-tail" version. When they came back, uniforms were being slowly changed over to the new version. The "old" version continued to be worn for MANY months by many LW personnel after the Luftwaffe's involvement in Spain was concluded, until the "new" version was fully available. Any serious Luftwaffe collector will confirm this.
Fact: In the tradition for German awards created in the three classes of bronze, silver and gold, it was quite natural to assume that if one level had swords for combatants and the other level did not have swords (for non-combatants), then each badge within a level would be consistent with the others. As things actually worked out, the gold class of the SK was not authorized to be without swords (although the bronze and silver were). This is also "common knowledge" in the collecting field.
Fact: The accepted original box for the Spanish Cross for Next-of-Kin very clearly displays a cross with "down-tailed" eagles. The badge inside, however, has the "swept tail" versions. My memory is telling me that this particular badge in its first issued version was made solely by one firm in Berlin. The normal SK was made by many, many firms throughout the Reich. There were very many awardees. Manufacture was certainly a commercial enterprise motivated by profit. Again, this box type is readily confirmable.
Fact: It is the OPINION of two well-recognized dealers (Wolfe-Hardin and Detlev Niemann), based on their experience, that badges with "down-tail" eagles WERE manufactured. Niemann has backed the particular SK on these boards (and all the other badges) with his "Certificate of Expertise". If this was a "trial", these people would be the "expert witnesses". I would also call Bob Hritz as an expert witness (even though he has not commented on this specific badge). Why? Not because I regard them as "God", but because they are prominent in this field and have earned the respect of those who dwell here.
You have asked for anything which would make a reasonable person believe that these boards were assembled using leftover (and not newly manufactured) stock. If you do not already see this here, I can't help you.
LeroyLast edited by Leroy; 10-25-2008, 01:42 PM.
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Originally posted by Don Doering View PostPost war when, 1945, 46, or two years ago?
These boards were apparently brought back by a British serviceman in 1945-46........no later. His family only recently sold them via the auction.
So I'm told, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. It fits with Bob H's and other stories re. getting similar boards from vets.
Most importantly, a photo from that time in one of the War Booty books (IWM picture) clearly shows a British serviceman with a load of high end decorations pinned to his chest.........including these distinctive long swords to the RK. That photo alone is pretty convincing evidence that these pieces date from the very beginning of the post-war period.....a time when it was more likely that original stock parts would have been used rather than medals being reproduced wholesale.
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I doubt you can use Detlev as an expert witness in this case as he probably has/had a vested interest in these being good. And he has been wrong before. Dealers make lousy expert witnesses since they all have a monetary stake in this crap. Nothing short of a period photo is ever going to put this to rest.pseudo-expert
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Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View PostDon.
These boards were apparently brought back by a British serviceman in 1945-46........no later. His family only recently sold them via the auction.
So I'm told, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. It fits with Bob H's and other stories re. getting similar boards from vets.
Most importantly, a photo from that time in one of the War Booty books (IWM picture) clearly shows a British serviceman with a load of high end decorations pinned to his chest.........including these distinctive long swords to the RK. That photo alone is pretty convincing evidence that these pieces date from the very beginning of the post-war period.....a time when it was more likely that original stock parts would have been used rather than medals being reproduced wholesale.pseudo-expert
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On a purely personal note, I think the whole thing about the down-turned tail eagle on the Spanish Cross is a red herring.
Look at all the maker variations involving eagles on pilot badges alone, for example. Hardly 2 exactly the same between makers.
Spanish Crosses were churned out for years after they were instituted.
I don't think a down-turned tail can be used as a sole indicator of originality at all, one way or the other.
It has to be seen in the context of other relevant indicators.
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Originally posted by Don Doering View PostRobin, what was stopping them from using the existing dies and pumping out awards for every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted them?
But I don't think it's likely. There was plenty of unwanted stock to go around at the time. It was lying around waiting to be picked up by the bucket-load.
Two Brits in June 1945.......................Attached FilesLast edited by Robin Lumsden; 10-25-2008, 02:02 PM.
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Originally posted by Don Doering View PostRobin, what was stopping them from using the existing dies and pumping out awards for every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted them?
Perfectly reasonable comment, but where are all those GWL badges (and SK's) now? As Bob Hritz said regarding the Anti-partisan badge: " No one wants to believe it, but please show me the rest of this production, if post war. "
Leroy
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