S&l ??

[Sal Williams]

Good morning, Dietrich,

What I was trying to convey was that these boards present to us a
"snaphot" (as Warlord just said) of what was really done, as opposed to the opinions and theories which have dominated this field for years.

The commercial availability of higher grades of the Ritterkreuz (as illustrated by Manteuffel's set) FOLLOWING the supposed "ban" can only mean that the "ban" was either not enforced or didn't apply to entitled recipients. That's an interesting point.

There are badges here which fly in the face of what has been accepted as "real". Maybe we shouldn't be so absolute.........

The use of PKZ numbers on early pieces MAY shed some light we didn't have before on the date of introduction. Of course, it is POSSIBLE that the early SK piece had a pin added from existing stock later. We won't know until and unless we have a chance to see it in much better photographs. From the appearance of the back of the board, it seems to have a pin and catch identical to the other SK's (ones which were long ago documented as correct). Coincidence? Maybe.

The RK's? As you say...who knows? Seems odd that if the PKZ was handing out flawed pieces to recipients over a year before that these unflawed versions would be available, and in quantity (based on Dave-B's almost identical find years ago). Maybe a "stash" at S&L (because of the attached Oaks and O&S) of sets intended for commercial sale? Maybe most of the 935-4's and 800-4's were already shipped out. You saw a mint 800-4 at the MAX, in its case. What did you really think?

Because the odds, at this late date, of confirming information from real people who were there, are so bad, we should welcome the "time machine" these boards give us. That "personal history" has been tenuous, at best,and more likely unreliable, for some time now. I wish I could capture all the images from the "emedals" site before they are gone, but I don't know how. I wish someone here, who is on good terms with the dealer, could prevail upon him for detailed photos, measurements, etc. of all the pieces.

The whole point of this "exercise" is that we don't know everything and, in fact, are now confronted with pretty good evidence that many things we believed about certain awards, and about the system in general, need to be re-evaluated. The routine condemnation of certain pieces should be questioned more intently. I know, personally, that you are open to this and welcome new information.

What has surprised me most about this thread is the lack of comment of the supposed "specialists" we always hear from when a particular badge is discussed. Surely not all of them are on holiday or have accidently missed this thread. My belief is that there are some "red faces" out there.

Regards,
Leroy

Leroy, this is the problem I often have with you. Now this SK is an early piece. You make these statements. Now that these magic untouched everything on them has to be original boards have turned up anyone who doubts these must prove otherwise? Absurd. These boards may have some things to show us but they are far from a guarantee of authenticity. You have a tendency to declare any weird item real with little if any good evidence. While I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at any new facts that come to light I do think there is harm in going off half cocked at every turn and making comments like this SK is an early one and the pin was put on later from leftover stock. How on earth could you know that? And if the finish is consistent on the cross an pin do you speculate (or declare as the case may be) that they put on a pin and then finished it after that to make this board? You go pretty far in trying to make something real quite often. For it to work it needs to fit in with all the facts (same as the 800 4) not just with some and in contradiction with others. You can not pick and choose which known fact to apply to what you want. These boards are interesting. They are not gods gift of originality to the collecting community. Without close pics you are going to declare the SK an "early" one? I am sorry but I don't think you are qualified (nor is anyone) to do that from what we can see here. If we used these methods to determine originality there would be no such thing as a fake. It is time to be a little more cautious. As it stands I assume you are ready to buy some original droop tails. About the "red faces", you mean to tell me that after this "absolute proof" you think the "experts " are hiding their heads in shame at their foolishness? Because these boards prove they were wrong? That is a stretch and a half.

[Sal Williams]

Well, I suppose if I had access to every collection in the world, I might see a few.....

I personally don't have one and have never seen one.

I think that might be one of the reasons why these boards are so interesting.

But you just said the SK on the board is an early piece? It is on the magic all original board. So you have seen 1 right?

[Leroy]

I hope Bob H will chime in, his experience is always an asset even when it doesn't go with popular thought.

Sal,
I just love your approach. The above is your quote from Post 108 in this thread. Well, Bob did "chime in" and advised us that 1.) he had purchased "dozens" of these boards from vets who brought them back from the war, 2.) these boards were assembled by people in Ludenschied in the immediate postwar period from leftover factory stock and sold or traded for food, and 3.) he had NEVER seen a fake badge on one of these boards.

Guess that didn't help you.

I have offered my THEORY (and that is all it is) as to the genesis of the SK on these boards. I believe it was a "jump the gun" model produced using the wrong style eagle and in a class that was not authorized, S&L assuming that the all models would be with and w/o swords. IF that was the case, the SK would HAVE to be an early piece. I only mentioned the possibility of a pin being added later (as did others here) because Bob also mentioned that, while the planchets were always real, he could not say if they had been "finished" before being put on the boards. Some of the many badges he had seen were lacking pins and had been sewn to the boards.

I have not gone off "half-cocked" as you have suggested, in the discussion of the possible mistaken production of an SK with a "down-tail". Instead, if anyone has done so, it is you. But this Forum does not need any more personal "observations", so I will stop there.

Again, I invite others to look at the cross which started the horrible thread I posted the link to. Our discussion here, if it is to remain serious and logical, should be of the PIECE, not the people.

Leroy

[Sal Williams]

Sal,
I just love your approach. The above is your quote from Post 108 in this thread. Well, Bob did "chime in" and advised us that 1.) he had purchased "dozens" of these boards from vets who brought them back from the war, 2.) these boards were assembled by people in Ludenschied in the immediate postwar period from leftover factory stock and sold or traded for food, and 3.) he had NEVER seen a fake badge on one of these boards.

Guess that didn't help you.

I have offered my THEORY (and that is all it is) as to the genesis of the SK on these boards. I believe it was a "jump the gun" model produced using the wrong style eagle and in a class that was not authorized, S&L assuming that the all models would be with and w/o swords. IF that was the case, the SK would HAVE to be an early piece. I only mentioned the possibility of a pin being added later (as did others here) because Bob also mentioned that, while the planchets were always real, he could not say if they had been "finished" before being put on the boards. Some of the many badges he had seen were lacking pins and had been sewn to the boards.

I have not gone off "half-cocked" as you have suggested, in the discussion of the possible mistaken production of an SK with a "down-tail". Instead, if anyone has done so, it is you. But this Forum does not need any more personal "observations", so I will stop there.

Again, I invite others to look at the cross which started the horrible thread I posted the link to. Our discussion here, if it is to remain serious and logical, should be of the PIECE, not the people.

Leroy

No Leroy. You have a whole post dedicated to; these boards represent originals and now folks must prove anything on them is not. Your burden of proof post not mine. Your other post says "Of course, it is POSSIBLE that the early SK piece had a pin added from existing stock later." you state that the pin could have been put on to THE early SK. That sounds like a statement of fact in that the "early SK" may have had a late pin.

About Bob, I like to hear what he has to say and I respect him a great deal but I don't think he is God. Any info he gives out I add to the pro side of a debate but it is not the final word for me. I was very much hoping to hear what he thinks of the SK but he did not comment on it specifically.

You go on to say that other badge collectors are "red faced" because they are wrong (that is the clear implication) and these badges are all originals now.

That is all half cocked. That is not how I think one should set about determining originality.

[Sal Williams]

The Joey Charles thread shows another "4" marked droop tail. How do you explain that? PKZ numers in effect pre 39? Or another added pin?

I am not saying droop tail originals are not a possibility, I say show me something that would make a resonable person believe they are.

[Don D.]

A post war assembled board from parts and pieces of various manufacturers does not solid proof make. Post war when, 1945, 46, or two years ago? Just how many SCs were laying around after the war? Perhaps S&L had to start making them to fill these boards/souvenier hunter demand. It seems to me one theory is as good as another at this point.

[Brian S]

S&L thank you once again for adding a few more gallons onto the ocean of muddy water.

[Leroy]

You have a whole post dedicated to; these boards represent originals and now folks must prove anything on them is not. Your burden of proof post not mine.

Sal (and others),
"Preponderence of the evidence" means (to use an American football analogy employed in law school to teach this stuff) that these boards have made it at least one inch past the 50 yard line on the "field of evidence" as to their originality. Bob Hritz's comments, alone, and even more so when coupled with the appearance of 2 rare (i.e. not many around) GWL badges, would carry them this far. So far, the only item really in dispute as to time period is that sole SK and, except for the presence of those eagles, no one has been able to say what's wrong with it. (Don't use the pin unless you are prepared to prove that the PKZ number absolutely could not be there.) Granted, it would be very nice to see more photos (and, as you may recall, I have been practically begging for these from the start). Why shouldn't the burden of proof "shift" (as it would in any courtroom in America)? After all, this Forum is very often a courtroom for disputed items. Could it be that you don't want the burden to shift because you can't challenge the evidence so far before us except by your own OPINION that such a badge could not possibly exist?

Do you honestly expect a badge, IF it was made by mistake and (very probably) in limited quantity because it WAS a mistake, to show up in period photographs or reference books (or, for that matter, collections)? There are LOTS of poor copies using this style eagle, but they all have some features about them (OTHER than the eagles) which give them away. What "gives away" this badge? Further, do you honestly believe that some one "planted" this ONE badge on these boards just to fool us a half century later?

Fact: The institution of a cross for veterans of the war in Spain was discussed in the trade and publicly well before the badge was actually awarded (just as, on a grander scale, the Grand Cross was discussed and copies actually made and put on display before it was awarded, to the irritation of the government). I don't own the copies of "Uniformenmarkt" or "Swert und Spaten" where this occured, but I have seen them, as have others. Maybe Dietrich has some. (I have not asked him.)

Fact: The transition of the Luftwaffe eagle from "down-tail" version to
"swept-tail" version occurred during this period. When LW forces went to Spain, their eagle was the "down-tail" version. When they came back, uniforms were being slowly changed over to the new version. The "old" version continued to be worn for MANY months by many LW personnel after the Luftwaffe's involvement in Spain was concluded, until the "new" version was fully available. Any serious Luftwaffe collector will confirm this.

Fact: In the tradition for German awards created in the three classes of bronze, silver and gold, it was quite natural to assume that if one level had swords for combatants and the other level did not have swords (for non-combatants), then each badge within a level would be consistent with the others. As things actually worked out, the gold class of the SK was not authorized to be without swords (although the bronze and silver were). This is also "common knowledge" in the collecting field.

Fact: The accepted original box for the Spanish Cross for Next-of-Kin very clearly displays a cross with "down-tailed" eagles. The badge inside, however, has the "swept tail" versions. My memory is telling me that this particular badge in its first issued version was made solely by one firm in Berlin. The normal SK was made by many, many firms throughout the Reich. There were very many awardees. Manufacture was certainly a commercial enterprise motivated by profit. Again, this box type is readily confirmable.

Fact: It is the OPINION of two well-recognized dealers (Wolfe-Hardin and Detlev Niemann), based on their experience, that badges with "down-tail" eagles WERE manufactured. Niemann has backed the particular SK on these boards (and all the other badges) with his "Certificate of Expertise". If this was a "trial", these people would be the "expert witnesses". I would also call Bob Hritz as an expert witness (even though he has not commented on this specific badge). Why? Not because I regard them as "God", but because they are prominent in this field and have earned the respect of those who dwell here.

You have asked for anything which would make a reasonable person believe that these boards were assembled using leftover (and not newly manufactured) stock. If you do not already see this here, I can't help you.

Leroy

[Robin Lumsden]

Post war when, 1945, 46, or two years ago?

Don.

These boards were apparently brought back by a British serviceman in 1945-46........no later. His family only recently sold them via the auction.
So I'm told, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. It fits with Bob H's and other stories re. getting similar boards from vets.

Most importantly, a photo from that time in one of the War Booty books (IWM picture) clearly shows a British serviceman with a load of high end decorations pinned to his chest.........including these distinctive long swords to the RK. That photo alone is pretty convincing evidence that these pieces date from the very beginning of the post-war period.....a time when it was more likely that original stock parts would have been used rather than medals being reproduced wholesale.

[Don D.]

I doubt you can use Detlev as an expert witness in this case as he probably has/had a vested interest in these being good. And he has been wrong before. Dealers make lousy expert witnesses since they all have a monetary stake in this crap. Nothing short of a period photo is ever going to put this to rest.

[Don D.]

Don.

These boards were apparently brought back by a British serviceman in 1945-46........no later. His family only recently sold them via the auction.
So I'm told, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. It fits with Bob H's and other stories re. getting similar boards from vets.

Most importantly, a photo from that time in one of the War Booty books (IWM picture) clearly shows a British serviceman with a load of high end decorations pinned to his chest.........including these distinctive long swords to the RK. That photo alone is pretty convincing evidence that these pieces date from the very beginning of the post-war period.....a time when it was more likely that original stock parts would have been used rather than medals being reproduced wholesale.

Robin, what was stopping them from using the existing dies and pumping out awards for every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted them?

[Robin Lumsden]

On a purely personal note, I think the whole thing about the down-turned tail eagle on the Spanish Cross is a red herring.

Look at all the maker variations involving eagles on pilot badges alone, for example. Hardly 2 exactly the same between makers.

Spanish Crosses were churned out for years after they were instituted.

I don't think a down-turned tail can be used as a sole indicator of originality at all, one way or the other.

It has to be seen in the context of other relevant indicators.

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin, what was stopping them from using the existing dies and pumping out awards for every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted them?

Nothing at all.

But I don't think it's likely. There was plenty of unwanted stock to go around at the time. It was lying around waiting to be picked up by the bucket-load.

Two Brits in June 1945.......................

[Robin Lumsden]

Nothing short of a period photo is ever going to put this to rest.

Don.

The von Manteuffel photos and the IWM photo are period pix, proving the originality of the long swords.

[Leroy]

Robin, what was stopping them from using the existing dies and pumping out awards for every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wanted them?

Don,
Perfectly reasonable comment, but where are all those GWL badges (and SK's) now? As Bob Hritz said regarding the Anti-partisan badge: " No one wants to believe it, but please show me the rest of this production, if post war. "
Leroy