This is one Souval cross I do happen to like!

[Peter J.]

"This is unbelievable, irresponsible and pathetic"

If I'm not mistaken, this is a discussion forum. Uwe has vented his concerns and also clearly stated it's his own opinion, how else should he present his case?

cheers
Peter

[Darrell]

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[speedytop]

Hi Darrell and all,

how about ...

"Here is the proof that all L58, L/58 crosses and all "Souval" crosses without Souval mm and with mm L15, 15 and L/13 are contemporary before May 1945."

That would be a start. Until you do that I wish these type of posts would cease.


Is it forbidden here, to advance an opinion?

And please notice, the opinion about the L 58 SB is from Detlef Niemann.

And I don't write here about mm R.S. and 98.

Some users here don't express their opinion, they say, it is contemporary, but without any proofs (vet's find is not a proof for me, I have such vet's finds with post war additions).

This is the small difference: I say, that in my opinion these crosses are not contemporary, based on many inconsistencies and the present absence of contemporary proofs.

Persuades me of your view!

Regards
Uwe

[ben bijker]

Hi Uwe,

don't take it personal please.

What Darrell means is that one man's opinion can lead to a kind of panic taht makes collectors sell their goods in a rush.

I too know that stuff from vets or relatives is not 100% guaranteed authentic.

You are correct, you didn't mention the 98 or R.S pieces, but if they have the same charcateristics, they must be post-war as well according to your opinion.
Or??


I really don't know how to prove things either way, and it's the same at your end.
There will always be a part of " believing" in collecting.
Even " textbook" is dangerous, there are enough fakes in the books as well.
So what will you be able to collect in the end?
Everything the dealer you trust puts up for sale?
Well, your collection will have some fakes in it as well then.....

It's not my task to persuade you either, everybody should have his own opinion, based on research, on research of others, gut-feeling, or what a leading dealer once said.

I am beyond the point of blind faith in dealers, they make their mistakes and misjudgements as well.
What's good today, may be wrong tomorrow, and the other way around.

Regards,
Ben

[Darrell]

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[Robert P.]

Hi Uwe,

don't take it personal please.

What Darrell means is that one man's opinion can lead to a kind of panic taht makes collectors sell their goods in a rush.

I too know that stuff from vets or relatives is not 100% guaranteed authentic.

You are correct, you didn't mention the 98 or R.S pieces, but if they have the same charcateristics, they must be post-war as well according to your opinion.
Or??

I really don't know how to prove things either way, and it's the same at your end.
There will always be a part of " believing" in collecting.
Even " textbook" is dangerous, there are enough fakes in the books as well.
So what will you be able to collect in the end?
Everything the dealer you trust puts up for sale?
Well, your collection will have some fakes in it as well then.....

It's not my task to persuade you either, everybody should have his own opinion, based on research, on research of others, gut-feeling, or what a leading dealer once said.

I am beyond the point of blind faith in dealers, they make their mistakes and misjudgements as well.
What's good today, may be wrong tomorrow, and the other way around.

Regards,
Ben

Ben,

Everything you have just said is sound, very solid. Much thought went into your presentaion, and what you have just said could be used over and over again in similar applications - not one word more, not one word less.

Robert

[ben bijker]

Hi Robert,

well, I have given it some thoughts, but this is the only way to put it IMO.

Everyone should decide for him(her) self what to believe in, without solid proof there is no way to convince anyone.

Thanks for the compliment!!

Best regards,
Ben

[speedytop]

Darrell,

"Detlev is NOT infallible."

Yes, I know!

e.g. the complete page 353 about 2. Modell "DRL".


Ben,

"... what was the conclusion on the German fora about L58 or L/58 marked pieces..."

Two years ago in one German forum and some days ago in another German forum we had discussions about the L/58 marked crosses and the other attributed mm.

Some irritation, some unproven assertions, no proofs.

Very different statements about e.g. L15, L/13 and the unmarked crosses from experts you can find there:
L/58 marked is okay, unmarked is suspicious, L/13 is wrong! The same crosses, only with different marking!
And, the mm L15 has been raised mistakenly.

There are still some more skeptics, but most do not dare to express her own divergent opinion towards the experts.

In the forum GMIC no statements of other users than here in this forum.

Regards
Uwe

[ben bijker]

Thanks Uwe.

I have to admit that some markings are suspicious.

Personally I am not keen on 15, L/15 and the L/13 shown previous in this thread.
I have less problems with the L/58 and unmarked crosses shown.

It is possible that Souval made and marked crosses for other makers, but somehow I don't like the ones mentioned above.
Gut-feeling, no proof.
So I can't tell for sure, same goes for the " other" side.

But I think we all do agree on 1 thing: Souval made ek's during ww2.
That automatically leads to the next conclusion: all Souvals with the same frame and core should be original ( although they made a lot of crosses after 1945 as well).

This will be a discussion without an end, since no-one has proof either way.

As I already said in an earlier reply: everybody should make up their own mind on these crosses, regardless what the experts or dealers think or write.
Gut-feeling and common sense is about 80-90% of collecting
Sometimes you go wrong, but very often it is very rewarding !

Best regards,
Ben


best regards,
Ben

[Darrell]

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[deejay]

So what did they say? What are their "Statements". Who are they?
Don't just toss about generalized comments about "experts" and "others" and they "think" ...

Let's hear it.

Hi Darrel,

I hope I can answer these for you. Comments like 'them' or 'they' refer to the sources we all at one stage began learning the basics and all there is you need to know about this hobby.

My experiences are formed by reading the books of well known people in our branch like Dr. Kurt Klietmann and Lt.Col J.R. Angolia who have expressed themselves on the subject in the past long ago as this issue; (quote from page 442 chapter: Postwar Reproduction of For Fuhrer and Fatherland 1976) Meanwhile, the Rudolf Souval firm of Vienna, Austria, continued to use the original dies to meet the ever-increasing demand for medals and badges... (and page 428) Probably the most common mark known to collectors is "L/58", the logo used by the firm of Rudolf Souval of Vienna, Austria. This logo was authorized for his use during the war years, and still is used today to mark his post-war copies.

My guess also is that Detlev Niemann's (and others) experience is also based on research material like this.

Anyway I think this is a very interesting discussion / thread and I feel that these Souvals should be sorted out for once and for all.

Just to make things even more interesting, I wanted to add this one (in my opinion a certain L/58 post war reproduction with dipping 3 and flat swaz).

[Darrell]

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[deejay]

Hi Darrel,

thanks for responding.

I reckon it is clear in every way that there is a severe case of 'over breed' of RS Iron crosses 1st class PB or SB L58, L/58 98 L/15 or whatever marking it may have (markings which prove absolutely nothing IMO), so much that we are now left with questionmarks as to what is authentic war time and what is not.

This exactly why I dislike these RS crosses and very much understand Ben on his findings.

Just to make clear to others as well, my goal with the post-war RS picture was to show - maybe even prove - that wartime dies were used to manufacture the reproductions. The pin setup a typical feature of a post war manufacture and definatly not the marking (if any present).

Only real provenance would give the answer we are all looking for. In my opinion the medal Ben started this thread with comes as close to what I would expect to see on a wartime made Iron Cross ! And last: we should not forget that other competing manufacturers then played a vital role when it came to quality, compare it to the first and second cross I showed, that is a very badly finished cross notice the cut-out frame. I have doubts if it would ever have passed the war-time quality control at all...

[speedytop]

Hi Darrell,

"This is unbelievable, irresponsible and pathetic."

"So what did they say? What are their "Statements". Who are they?
Don't just toss about generalized comments about "experts" and "others" and they "think" ... Let's hear it."

Are we here on a barrack yard, you are the commanding NCO like "Unteroffizier Himmelstoß" and I am the recipient of your orders?
Are you not able, to accept other opinions than your own?
And all the others must explain their opinion with proofs, but you not?


"... the two names you quote [Klietmann and Angolia] are known to have several other "fakes" offered in their literature."

That is correct, both had offered e.g. serious "fakes" like sports badge DRL without swastika as period TR badges.


"Let's hear it."

Please see here:

http://sammlergemeinschaft-deutscher...ngen.org/wbb4/

"Suchen" [search] and type "souval"

and please see here:

http://militaria-fundforum.de/index.php

"Suchen" [search] and type "souval"

Kind Regards
Uwe

[ben bijker]

Uwe, I'm on vacation and don't have my passwords at hand.
I am not willing to change them again, so I will check out these threads when I am back home.

Although it looked like you were presenting a given fact (L/58 pieces are fake), now we all have seen that it is just your opinion.
Everybody has an opinion, on the WAF, SDA, MFF and whatevere fora there are on the internet.

You are not going to be able to convince the believers that all L/58 or L58 pieces are post-war, the believers won't be able to convince you taht they are good.


I think we are not making progress anymore, basically this thread has come to an end because all things that can be said, have been said.

Without proof (which there is not) all we have are opinions.
Sad but true...

I'm happy with the crosss that started this thread, if someone else feels uncomfortable with it, so be it.
I have other pieces in my collection that have been subject to discussion, but as long as I feel comfortable with it, no harm done.
After all, it's my collection, and my investment.

Don't stick too much to dealer's opinions, use common sense when reading the opinions of other collector's and keep an open mind.

A textbook collection will never be more then a textbook collection, if you feel ok with that, no problem.
To me it's no fun, I like the challenge of turning up nice variations.
It's a matter of time and money to complete them all, but there will never be the challenge of finding a new variation, or starting a lenghty discussion by posting an item just acquired

Best regards,
Ben