This is one Souval cross I do happen to like!

[ben bijker]

Thank you Peter.

Although I don't doubt the authenticity of this cross, your opinion is very iportant to me.
After all you did a very complete in-depth study of Souval crosses.

Regards,
Ben

[speedytop]

Hi,

these are all back sides with the same needles on Souval crosses:



Do you really believe, that all these different marking (L15, 15, untagged, L/13, L/58) is war time marking, in Vienna, Pforzheim and Berlin?

Please compare the "L/" in L/13 and L/58.

I do not believe this.
For it one would already have to be able to adduce to me very sturdy evidences.


Peter,
In Your very nice thread I miss statements for the production periods.

Regards
Uwe

Please, excuse my bad English

[ben bijker]

Hi Uwe,

Although the hardware on these crosses looks pretty similar, I don't believe all of these crosses to be authentic.

I have never liked the Souval style L/15, I can't imagine Meybauer had crosses made by Souval either.
(but don't forget Floch, who is an Austrian as well.)
I'm not to keen on 15 marked crosses either, although the majority of the collector's regards them as authentic.

You say something about the L in L/13 and L/58, but do you mean that they look different or do you see similarities?

If I understand correctly what you have written so far, you don't believe any Souval cross is period?
You doubt L/58 SB's as well.
This means tha ll Souval crosses are post-war, am I correct??

With all do respect, where does this leave the attributed Souval-crosses??

Regards,
Ben

[Darrell]

.

[deejay]

Hi Ben,
interesting thread ! Your remark on your dislike of the Souval crosses together with my own gut feelings on the questionable variations of this manufacturer made me get rid of all my Souvals (I had 4 variants).

Here are two of which the first one has was repainted, both magnetic and the same pin setup as yours. In fact these L/58 marked pinned crosses are pretty hard to find...

[deejay]

Here the same type but unmarked and with a better finishing.

[speedytop]

Hi Ben,

I can recognize no difference in both "L/".

And L 58 SB; I saw and older expertise from Detlef Niemann, and you can read there, "... kein zeitgenössisches Original ...", no period original.

I don't know his current opinion, in his "handbook" "Niemann 2" from 2004 you don't find a L 58 or a L/58.

I show facts, different marking on identical crosses with identical needles, with Souval "edges", flat swastika and the dipping 3.
I have expressed my opinion, but this decision has to be made by each and every one alone.

You can find the dipping 3 and the very flat swastika on post war Souval Knights Crosses too, marked e.g. with the small L/58.

To change my opinion, I need truly serious proofs.

Regards
Uwe

[Robert P.]

This is all very enlightening, and very unpleasant to hear in light of myself owning an L/58 SB, and the unmarked example that matches Ben's L/58 PB. Now I'm understanding why others have called Souvals a 'minefield'.

I'd be very curious to hear Detlev's current opinion.

Robert

[ben bijker]

Uwe, Detlev has changed his mind on a number of other items as well.
It´s impossible to know all, some things you just learn over the yzears.
To me it is hardly likely that all L/58 crosses are fake, and I am sure there are a number of attributed Souval crosses in collections.

I donˇt really have a problem with the L/58 marks on Deejayˇs crosses either

Souval is a minefield indeed, that´s why there usuallz are of little interest to me.
If zou try to sell them, you can get caught up in discussions like this prettz easily.

I don´t have a prolem with this particular pinback since I know where it came from.

Everybody should make up his own mind on Souval crosses, bu for me this one is good.
Can´t believe everz L/58 is fake, if that is the case then all unmarked Souvals that have the same features are fake as well, including the 2nd classes.
The L/58 ek2 I have seen so far have got a low swas as well, just like the 98 marked crosses.

Best regards,
Ben

[Robert P.]

Surely these Souval packets housed original crosses, eh? Or, are the packets subject too?

Robert

[ben bijker]

Surely these Souval packets housed original crosses, eh? Or, are the packets subject too?

Robert

Well Robert, if there are no original Souval ek´s , I guess all the envelopes must be regarded post-war as well...

All joking aside, Souval had a license and made crosses during the war.

About different stamps on crosses, there are several accepted L/12 crosses which are no Juncker-made crosses.
I have an L/59 with L/56 set=up, and 2 L/50 marked ek´s that are 100% BH Mayer made.

Uwe, what was the conclusion on the German fora about L58 or L/58 marked pieces, did the majority agree that these were post-war ?
I don´t see the connection between the post-war Souval KC and these crosses realy, I presume they cut another die for those because of the size, or modified an exsisting die.
We know Souval was licensed to make ek´s , but can you show us an example of a Souval ek that you do believe to be authentic?
Or do you regard ALL Souval crosses as post-war??


Best regards,
Ben

[Darrell]

,.

[ben bijker]

Darrell, that was exactly my point, but I tried to break the news gently.

IMO there is no reason to panic at all.
There are lots of good Souvals out there, but I never felt the urge to own one.
I have never studied them really, because of that reason, but I just had to snag up this one.

No cross is bad because one or 2 people claim it's a fake.
If that was true we could toss away about 90% of our collections.

I never lose trust in pieces because of that, and I won't sell for that reason either.
This L/58 is going to stay in my display .

Best regards,
Ben

[all1knew]

Hello there,

Well let's see some other Souval's out there with a subtle dipping 3 in the date as this is certainly infrequent.

Here is a Canadian vet bring-back. While the reverse is identical to yours, minus the maker mark, my 3 dips far more than you core.

Hope this helps.

William Kramer

[Robert P.]

What the hell is going on here?

One guy expresses (and admits) HIS opinion and everyone is freaking out ready to sell

This is unbelievable, irresponsible and pathetic. Show us proof before another piece's "originality" is destroyed by hearsay and opinions.

Detlev has made out COA's on L/12's that were deemed as fakes. Does that make all L/12 fakes? Good Lord.

Don't worry, Darrell. I have no intention of selling what I have because of this. My confidence remains anchored in the fact that Souval was a wartime manufacturer. I like my pieces, and I am keeping them. And, I'd love to buy a marked 'L/58' PB. Please PM me.

Robert