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Billy Kramer

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    #46
    Glad to see this thread come to life!!! I'll attempt to answer all questions this afternoon.

    A sticky point for me though is the .60mm thickness and how much would have to be 'taken down' to create the flat area. It occures to me that the particular area then would be very thin and fragile.
    Regards,
    Dave

    Comment

      #47
      Since the thickness of S&L silver sheet is about 0.6 mm, as Dave correctly says, a hole would be visible if the lower portion of the dipping ring is higher than 0.6 mm above the level of the ring.

      Since neither I nor enybody else has ever seen such a hole the skilled worker at S&L were very good in leaving a very thin sheet of maybe 0.1 - 0.2 mm thickness (and that never caved in...) or the dipping ring is not hollow in the area where it dips in to the ring, or it is not a wartime frame but rather a later one (this is what I think, by the way...).

      A picture of the inside would be very helpfull.
      B&D PUBLISHING
      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

      Comment

        #48
        It's certainly not a war time frame but rather quite 'late' as evidenced by the softening of the strike and obvious repairs. The die that slapped this frame went through several rehabilitations.
        I don't recall the 'reverse' being any thicker in the ring area but I'll get some pics later on and someone may spot a point of interest.
        Regards,
        Dave

        Comment

          #49
          Here we go!
          Attached Files
          Regards,
          Dave

          Comment

            #50
            1
            Attached Files
            Regards,
            Dave

            Comment

              #51
              2
              Attached Files
              Regards,
              Dave

              Comment

                #52
                3
                Attached Files
                Regards,
                Dave

                Comment

                  #53
                  4
                  Attached Files
                  Regards,
                  Dave

                  Comment

                    #54
                    I would suggest that when the two halves were joined there might be a pressing or pressure at that point where we are missing a dipped ring thus there would be no reason for the hole. You wear away very much of that metal you greatly increase the chances of fatigue at the area that you suggest is worn away. I'm not aware of SL crosses with bent over rings so I don't think ground down is the process.

                    Comment

                      #55
                      In my opinion it is not that difficult to understand. Below is the dipping ring of a 1957 RK with second pattern core. The frame have dieflaws and what appears to be dents on the lower part of the 3 o'clock arm. The photo show the obverse side of the cross.

                      In my opinion, and i think it can bee seen in the photo, they filled the cavity of the ring with solder and thus making it solid.

                      Peter
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Peter Wiking; 02-10-2007, 08:49 AM. Reason: Spelling

                      Comment

                        #56
                        They was not lucky on all crosses. This is the same cross as shown above. Now reverse side shown. We can see that some parts of the cavity was not filled completely after all. Maybe this was the reason why they stoped shaving of the lower part of the ring?

                        Peter
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #57
                          What effect, if any, does all this have on the idea that the multi-flawed die
                          was sold to a dealer (in the UK?) and used thereafter to make copies?

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Leroy View Post
                            What effect, if any, does all this have on the idea that the multi-flawed die
                            was sold to a dealer (in the UK?) and used thereafter to make copies?
                            Selling a set of tools is one thing. Putting them into use is another thing. Is there any evidence that these tools was in use after they was sold?

                            Peter

                            Comment

                              #59
                              There are certainly crosses in circulation showing the "dents" on the 3 o'clock arm, the irregularity at the intersection of the 6 and 9 o'clock arms and die flaws on the 3, 6 and 9 arms. When, under the repaired die theory, were these made? I am not saying this theory is incorrect, only that there must be some logical explanation as to how and when these crosses were made if there were ongoing repairs being made to a single die. In other words, I suppose, where do "heavily flawed" crosses fit in?

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Let me put a question to you.......(all)

                                If the frame that Dave shows is an S&L frame with all the die flaws to prove it....... and it has a dipping ring with a hollow inside......how is it possible to have a pre '45 frame with the same die flaws.....and a flat bottom on the ring? If the ring has been filed flat on the pre '45 frame then it would be filed through into the hollow part of the ring.

                                So is the frame Dave shows produced from the same dies as the pre '45 dies? (die flaws would suggest so).

                                How is this possible to have a flat bottom on the ring of a pre '45 frame without it being filed through into the hollow reverse?
                                Note the pictures to see how far down the hollow inner part goes on Daves frame.

                                Maybe two dies with the same beading flaws but a different ring section?

                                Comment

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