One (repaired) S&l Rk Die!

[George Stimson]

"So is the frame Dave shows produced from the same dies as the pre '45 dies? (die flaws would suggest so)."

I'd like to see a good comparison of the flaws on both type frames.

[Peter Wiking]

Let me put a question to you.......(all)
How is this possible to have a flat bottom on the ring of a pre '45 frame without it being filed through into the hollow reverse?
Note the pictures to see how far down the hollow inner part goes on Daves frame.

Look at the photos i provided. Is it not possible that they filled the cavity with solder? Does not take much to fill them and making them solid.

Peter

[Dave Kane]

Peter, if this area was 'taken down' to the level of the frame and considering that the frame (halves) are 0.6mm thick to include the ring, taking off 0.2mm on either side would leave a very thin 'neck' at the highlighted point....

Yet, I haven't heard of inherent weakness at this point regarding S&L Crosses.

This is the confusing part!

[Sonderkommando]

Peter,
As you know the frames are soldered together with lead solder and not silver solder. If the ring was filed through then the lead solder would be very, very obvious!

Also, do you believe every single S&L KC had the ring filed flat when it would be a very simple procedure to just make the die stamp them flat in the first place?

These dies apparently have been fiddled with/altered endlessly over their life span, so it seems that repairing or altering them is a simple job. I don't believe they would NOT alter the dies to stamp the ring with a flat bottom, but would prefer to waste endless man hours hand filing every single one?

My opinion only......



Brett

[Dave Kane]

This area would be very thin...

[Peter Wiking]

Brett.
Lead? Are you sure? I thought a silversmith used silver and not lead.

Dave.
The cavity in the ring could be made solid by leveling it with silver prior to assembly. If not then we are not talking about the same dietools. Are we? Why is there a dent row on them then in the same place regardless of style on that ring?

Peter

[Dave Kane]

Peter, exactly! And, that's why it is confusing to me....

Can anyone show ANY period Cross that is EXACTLY the same in the area underneath the ring?

Every Cross I have examined clearly showed 'hand-work' in that area and NO two ridges have been alike.

[Dave Kane]

Or are we just chasing a ghost and the war time planchets a little bit THICKER...maybe in the area of .75-.78?

[Leroy]

IF the wartime frames are thicker, does this mean that a cross exhibiting heavy flawing, but no exposure of solder when the ring was filed, is wartime?

[Harry]

Here are 2 mint wartime crosses by S&L, both show signs of more trimming /polishing immediately below the ring than elsewhere on the frame...first up an earlier war flawless 800 marked example..

[Harry]

2nd..a much later 935-4 example.......

[Peter Wiking]

While we are at it, Steinhauer & Lück was not the only producer to have a flat/straight lower part of the ring. Here is a Klein & Quenzer. How did they do it?

Peter

[Dave Kane]

Peter, the K&Q seem to be fairly constant in appearance and finish suggesting a result of the die design.

The S&L Crosses however show great variety in depth, thickness and width in addition to lots of 'finishing' that's unlike the rest of the frame in that it's very rough on some to quite smooth on others.

Anyone have any close-up shots of their S&L from right under the ring?

[ChrisJ]

Rings

Dave...my understanding based on observation ...

usually during the 3R period the ring is completely filled with solder on both frame sides, then a solder membrane was placed between the two frame parts and the complete frame subjected to heat to fuse the solder and the two frame halves. After that point the hole in the ring was opened out and the dipping ring levelled.

Why was this done ? Dont know. but as other manufacturers avoided a "dipping ring" it must have been for the same reason (whatever it was). A number of possibilities come to mind, but it would only be speculation on my part.

Can I ask you to post a scan of the inside of the frame in the area of the dent row (?)...now that would be very intersting !

Regards
Chris

[Peter Wiking]

Dave...my understanding based on observation ...

usually during the 3R period the ring is completely filled with solder on both frame sides, then a solder membrane was placed between the two frame parts and the complete frame subjected to heat to fuse the solder and the two frame halves. After that point the hole in the ring was opened out and the dipping ring levelled.

Why was this done ? Dont know. but as other manufacturers avoided a "dipping ring" it must have been for the same reason (whatever it was). A number of possibilities come to mind, but it would only be speculation on my part.

Can I ask you to post a scan of the inside of the frame in the area of the dent row (?)...now that would be very intersting !

Regards
Chris

This is what i was trying to say as well. They made the ring solid with solder. Does not take much. A slight dip with the silver and it is done.

Peter