One (repaired) S&l Rk Die!

[ChrisJ]

Actually, it was I who suggested the possibility of 'weld splatter'

David, my friend..indeed you are right....my mistake.

[ChrisJ]

Chris,

that could very well be. The dents are pressing thru the silver to the male die. Let me see what the frame looks inside...But I still maintain that the main reason are the distortions on the female die.

Dietrich

That would be intereting......was the male damaged in this way ?....could be.

[ChrisJ]

Chris,

with all due respect I cannot - as much as I try - come to any technical explanation how the INSIDE of the frame die (the 'male') could create the dent row as pictured. Especially when - following that theory - there is nothing from the female die (which should be smooth as a baby's behind in your theory) is pushing materials into the cavities of the male die. Unless the male die 'sucks' it in.

I'm sorry. I cannot see that at all and I am of the unshaken believe that the dent row is created by some kind of debris in the femal die. And hard debris that is!

Dietrich

From the link to the article I posted you will recall that the sheer angles are critical, and the stamping can indeed be trapped, making removal difficult of a stamping difficult. So, its not impossble that the silver is pinched in during frame removal from the die.
However...we are perhaps getting into ethereal realms now.....

From Dave's pictures it seems as though the dent row is visible on the reverse....why should that be ?

Looking forward to studying this one more in the flesh, as surely the answer to many questions is in this frame !

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for your replies to my questions...

I understand your thoughts a little better now and I see what you are saying about the male "hub" and the dent row.

For the underside of the frame to have the raised dent row, then the flaw must have been in the male hub from the beginning.
If the "hub" had the dent row then any male dies made from this hub will have a dent row, as will any female dies made from this hub have a "raised" dent row. (This is what is being called the weld splatter).

Which now raises the thought that if there was a master hub for the dies, then any number of male and female dies could have been made from this master hub, all still having the dent row.
Over a period of time, the dent row would "soften" through wear, along with other features, which leaves us with frames as Dave has shown.

The dipping ring is still a mystery to me though?


Let the discussion continue..........

[Sonderkommando]

Just thinking out loud here.......

What about if the original dies were designed with the flat bottom to the ring, and then when the dies were used later to make the early '57 crosses, S&L re-cut the dies to have the dipping ring just as a small design change for the new style KC?

Has anyone seen a KC with the dipping ring, the dent row and a swastika centre?

[Sal Williams]

But then in that case, we would not see the effect on the underside of the beading would we ?. Please explain this, Dietrich.

OK then ...meeting your arguement somewhere in the middle....could this be features/damage to both parts of the die (male and female) in the same place ?....now that is possible as well !

Chris, couldn't the explaination be as simple as this...

If you welded a glob on the female part of a die and then pressed it (with the material to be shaped trapped between) into the male die , that the result would be that you also would indent the male die? Thus leaving the female die with a glob and the male die with a dent?

Best, Sal

[ChrisJ]

Chris, couldn't the explaination be as simple as this...

If you welded a glob on the female part of a die and then pressed it (with the material to be shaped trapped between) into the male die , that the result would be that you also would indent the male die? Thus leaving the female die with a glob and the male die with a dent?

Best, Sal

Yes...this occurs to me too, Sal.....maybe we are getting closer.

Once DM has had a look at the frame half, I hope to get alook at it in person.....(cant wait !)

[Brian S]

...and between runs the die is cleaned, probably a brush rotating on a drill or air gun to get the leftover bits and pieces stuck here and there. In the process, the weld splatter gets worn. The weld splatter being softer than the original die material.

[Sal Williams]

Yes...this occurs to me too, Sal.....maybe we are getting closer.

Once DM has had a look at the frame half, I hope to get alook at it in person.....(cant wait !)

Hi Chris,
It seems to me that when looking for an explaination for the fact that the dent row is visible on both the outside and inside of the frame one has to find one in which both are explained by the same event. Incredibly unlikely that they coincidentaly happened to both the male and female die at seperate times by chance. The only thing I can think of is when the female dies dent row "weld splatter" was pressed into the male die (with the silver between) it dented the male die. This would explain the appearance of both sides of the frame properly and both be caused by the same event (the weld splatter). I imagine this is quite possible even with a sheet of soft silver between the dies because once you trap the silver between the dies and it has nowhere to go and no more room to compress it becomes in effect as hard as the dies themselves soft material or not.

Best, Sal

[Sal Williams]

Here you go Dave pics of the ring on mine

[Sal Williams]

Other side

All of the pics shown so far look to me as if they were flattened with a punch of some sort in the area in question. Maybe then soldered and then hand finished?

[Dave Kane]

Great pictures Sal!!

[Brian S]

Other side

All of the pics shown so far look to me as if they were flattened with a punch of some sort in the area in question. Maybe then soldered and then hand finished?

Sal that's pretty much what I was thinking too. When the halves were joined a press or something flattened out that area.

[ChrisJ]

Sal that's pretty much what I was thinking too. When the halves were joined a press or something flattened out that area.

Nope...before the halves were joined...otherwise the "800" mark would be flattened too. Not a press, but a simple hammer/punch operation. Remember the 800 mark was applied before the frames were joined.

[ChrisJ]

Hi Chris,
It seems to me that when looking for an explaination for the fact that the dent row is visible on both the outside and inside of the frame one has to find one in which both are explained by the same event. Incredibly unlikely that they coincidentaly happened to both the male and female die at seperate times by chance. The only thing I can think of is when the female dies dent row "weld splatter" was pressed into the male die (with the silver between) it dented the male die. This would explain the appearance of both sides of the frame properly and both be caused by the same event (the weld splatter). I imagine this is quite possible even with a sheet of soft silver between the dies because once you trap the silver between the dies and it has nowhere to go and no more room to compress it becomes in effect as hard as the dies themselves soft material or not.

Best, Sal

Thanks Sal,
Well, if you accept that the male was the "hub" then all that would be need would be for the the defects to be filled, and then the male repressed into the heated female to reform the female (this would explain the discrete changes that took place to the "A" type frame when it was repaired and became the "B" type in my opinion). It could well be that during this operation the dies set (male and female) was damaged in the dent row area.