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**Sonderkommando** · 02-13-2007, 10:36 AM

Hi Chris,
So you are saying that the frame that Dave showed was made from the original "hub" as it has the dent row? And the ring is as all S&L KC's were before it was hand filed down?

This would make it a pre '57 frame as in your theory all '57 and onwards frames would not have the dent row due to a new set of dies being made?

If this is the case, then any '57 KC's with the dipping ring and a dent row would be made using leftover frames from the original "hub" and would have the dipping ring due to it not being filed down. (or could possibly have it filed down).

One thing that is still not clear is why would S&L bother to hand file all the rings flat on their wartime KC's? I doubt if it was to be able to fit the 800 stamp under the ring as they could have easily stamped it 5mm to either side to make it fit.

**ChrisJ** · 02-13-2007, 05:33 PM

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"One thing that is still not clear is why would S&L bother to hand file all the rings flat on their wartime KC's? I doubt if it was to be able to fit the 800 stamp under the ring as they could have easily stamped it 5mm to either side to make it fit."

Hi Brett

To answer this part first....it would be the work of seconds to flatten the dipped ring area with a jewellers hammer and rectangular punch prior to the frames being joined. Followed by a few seconds filing once the cross was assembled.

Why ?...who knows.....probably it just looked better, and all other RK manufacturers avoided a dipping ring.

I might add here too that we know the half ring, brass cores and other anomalies quickly disappeared from RK production. In my mind officialdom required these changes, and would be quite likely to have demanded that the dipping ring be removed...it might reasonably be postulated that such an impingement into the frame of an RK would not be acceptable for what was supposed to be an unblemished "cross".

**ChrisJ** · 02-13-2007, 07:06 PM

Dies

Replies in blue

Originally posted by Brett Dixon View Post

Hi Chris,
So you are saying that the frame that Dave showed was made from the original "hub" as it has the dent row? And the ring is as all S&L KC's were before it was hand filed down?

Almost...what I am saying is that the frame was made using the same set of dies. Taking this a step further, I believe that the male of this die set was in fact the "hub" from which the other half of the die was made.

This would make it a pre '57 frame as in your theory all '57 and onwards frames would not have the dent row due to a new set of dies being made?

If this is the case, then any '57 KC's with the dipping ring and a dent row would be made using leftover frames from the original "hub" and would have the dipping ring due to it not being filed down. (or could possibly have it filed down).

Again...not quite. Any frame showing the dent row, in my opinion, was made using the same set of dies as the 935/4...whether or not these were leftover frames or simply new frames produced using these dies is a question I cannot answer....probably a combination of both.

I'll stress...this is my opinion which fits the facts at this time to my satisfaction.

**ChrisJ** · 02-13-2007, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Chris, the male die is not pushing into rubber or foam. If it were then the flaws on the underside of the die or the male die would naturally push into the soft upper surface. The upper surface in this case is a hard steel die. Unless the die were pressed so hard as to cause the male die extruding flaws to press upwards through the surface of the material inbetween the two die halves pressing the material out of its way, you would not see the flaws of the male die. The dent row on some crosses is crisp and clear which is a clear indication of a presence of material on the female die. Please don't be surprised if another 12 hours pass.

I find it very hard to follow your line of thought here, Brian....and I fear you have missed the point.

The flaws in the male die would be cracks across the top of the ridges, which would fill with silver when pressed during the stamping process. If this were not the case, and the dent row was a female feature ("weld spattered" as you have postulated) then the underside of the pressed frame half in the area of the dent row would be unblemished...whereas there are raised surfaces on the underside...so its absolutely certain that the male had cracks to the surface....its impossible for a raised surface on the underside of the beading of a frame half to be caused by a female feature. If raised features (you say "weld spatter") on the female were large enough they might punture the frame, but could not cause a ridge...otherwise they would need to be poking holes into the male.

Its obvious to me....does everyone follow this reasoning ?

**George Stimson** · 02-13-2007, 07:19 PM

"Why ?...who knows.....probably it just looked better, and all other RK manufacturers avoided a dipping ring."

But Juncker used a dipping ring on its version of the Grand Cross, an award with much more prestige than the RK.
(And the 1870 and 1914 versions of the GK were also "dippers.")

**Brian S** · 02-13-2007, 07:52 PM

Chris, you're entitled to whatever you wish to believe.

Cheers.

**ChrisJ** · 02-13-2007, 09:21 PM

Gc

Originally posted by George Stimson View Post

"Why ?...who knows.....probably it just looked better, and all other RK manufacturers avoided a dipping ring."

But Juncker used a dipping ring on its version of the Grand Cross, an award with much more prestige than the RK.
(And the 1870 and 1914 versions of the GK were also "dippers.")

Agreed....but there WAS only one of those (1939 version), and it was kind of contemporary with the dipper wasnt it ?

What we do know is that the half ring, brass core etc etc were considered unregulated, and frowned upon.....so why not that ugly dipping ring ?

I'm sorry but I cant offer any better idea, and dont have the answer to this one.

One last swipe though.....petty offialdom is not a product of our age, presumably and it was as rife in the 3R......someone just decided that a dipping ring just would "not do."

**ChrisJ** · 02-13-2007, 09:23 PM

Eh ?

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Chris, you're entitled to whatever you wish to believe.

Cheers.

Oh yes, and I'll do that Brian.....

(but heck...whats happened you used to love a good arguement)

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-14-2007, 10:49 AM

Chris,

with all due respect I cannot - as much as I try - come to any technical explanation how the INSIDE of the frame die (the 'male') could create the dent row as pictured. Especially when - following that theory - there is nothing from the female die (which should be smooth as a baby's behind in your theory) is pushing materials into the cavities of the male die. Unless the male die 'sucks' it in.

I'm sorry. I cannot see that at all and I am of the unshaken believe that the dent row is created by some kind of debris in the femal die. And hard debris that is!

Dietrich

Attached Files

flaw row l.jpg (108.8 KB, 127 views)

**Peter Wiking** · 02-14-2007, 12:03 PM

Dietrich
The dents is formed by raised areas in the vallys of the female tool? Any idea why this was never repaired?

Peter

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-14-2007, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Peter Wiking View Post

Dietrich
The dents is formed by raised areas in the vallys of the female tool? Any idea why this was never repaired?

Peter

Yes, something sitting on top of the female beading. Weld splatter from the repair, as Brian suggested (I can buy that). Why not repaired? because it's so tiny that it took 60 years to even identify it...

**Bob Hritz** · 02-14-2007, 03:01 PM

I believe the dent row is the result of a weld and reinforcement of the die. From what I have seen, the dent row is sometimes very clearly defined and sometimes very faint. This is on both pre-45 ( In MY opinion) and post-45 strikes. This could be the result of either wear to the weld line, or, the striking at a different pressure and/or throw.

Either way, I still believe there are original Steinhauer crosses that display the dent row. I have gotten them from vets and also from my competitors, who got them from their ads.

There is NO DOUBT that St&L made crosses post war. I have those, which I have purchased to study. The 1957's are also useful for this study. They are all over with heavy flaws and without heavy flaws. I have not been able to make a time line as have others' who have better equipment and skills.

There will be a solution found, as with all human endeavours, with enough time, energy, and study, WITHOUT and agenda to keep.

Bob Hritz

**ChrisJ** · 02-14-2007, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Chris,

I'm sorry. I cannot see that at all and I am of the unshaken believe that the dent row is created by some kind of debris in the femal die. And hard debris that is!

Dietrich

But then in that case, we would not see the effect on the underside of the beading would we ?. Please explain this, Dietrich.

OK then ...meeting your arguement somewhere in the middle....could this be features/damage to both parts of the die (male and female) in the same place ?....now that is possible as well !

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-14-2007, 06:29 PM

Chris,

that could very well be. The dents are pressing thru the silver to the male die. Let me see what the frame looks inside...But I still maintain that the main reason are the distortions on the female die.

Dietrich

**Dave Kane** · 02-14-2007, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Yes, something sitting on top of the female beading. Weld splatter from the repair, as Brian suggested (I can buy that). Why not repaired? because it's so tiny that it took 60 years to even identify it...

Actually, it was I who suggested the possibility of 'weld splatter' based solely on logic and mechanics! You, with degrees in Engineering please, work out the hows and whys.....all I look to is the simple explanation ( likely the reason ) most of the time.

Another 'simple' observation....the pocks/dents WILL soften in appearance over time which makes a 'time line' viable!

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