GFM von Bock's KC?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bill,

any date to the photo?

Dietrich

[Skullhead]

Good photos

[Detlev Niemann]

This KC is pictured in my priceguide, page 481
regards
detlev

[Bill H.]

Bill,

any date to the photo?

Dietrich

Hi Dietrich,

The postcard is kinda sewn to a backing paper so I can't see anything behind it. My guess is that it was probably taken while he was in command of Army Group Center based on the pattern of elongated GFM tabs which didn't appear until after the invasion of Russia. After his second sacking by Hitler after Stalingrad, its not likely that he would have been sitting for any official state photographs.

I'll have to break out Angolia & Schlicht's book on Army uniforms to get the earliest intro date for that style of tabs but the photo dates between that date and the end of 1942.

It looks to me that the KC he wears in this photo is different than the one that sparked this controvercy. I'll have to plow though my archive and see if I have a photo of von Bock wearing the mystery pattern.

One thing to consider is that if your sitting for a photographer who is the personal photographer of the Fuehrer, you are probably going to wear your Sunday bests. That means, you wear your nicest uniform and your best medals and not the dinged up ones he wears to work each day. Fedor von Bock wore his KC over top of the PLM as did most of the men who wore both medals and in doing so they tended to bang against one another chipping the enamel of the the PLM as the color photo shows.

It stands to reason that von Bock would have at least two examples of his PLM and KC and probably more. Consider that he got the PLM in 1918 and the KC 21 years later. In the Hoffmann photo both awards appear to be mint condition. Von Bock was a career officer who remained in the Reichwehr throughout the 1920s and (no doubt) proudly wore the medal every day he was in uniform. Imagine the feeling you get when the leader of your country bestows such an award to you. I think I'd tend to put that one in a safe place and ding up a copy I bought for everyday wear. Case in point are the Golden Close Combat Clasps in those spiffy presentation cases that Hitler awarded. How many of those would you imagine went into combat?

Also, as someone earlier pointed out von Bock was one of the very first recipients of the KC getting his 30 September 1939 for his command of forces taking Poland. If we assume the cross in question is the issue cross from that date it may make sence that it fails to compare with later examples. It may be wiser to compare this KC with Grand Crosses of the Imperial era since it may have been those dies that created the frames of the first KCs. Just a thought.

Again, my appologies for resuscitating an old thread but I happened upon it by accident and got caught up in the discussion.

Cheers, Bill Huber

[Biro]

...It may be wiser to compare this KC with Grand Crosses of the Imperial era since it may have been those dies that created the frames of the first KCs. Just a thought....Cheers, Bill Huber

Hi Bill

The 1914 Grand Cross is give or take 60mm X 60mm so I don't think this is an option... unless I'm misreading your reply...

Great photo - thanks. Clears up some things for me as well.... particularly in relation to the PLM on 'the marshals baton' website..

Marshall

[meriksson]

I dont know any in this KC stuff, but a hint that ive seen in many zimmer/godet. Is the core is not that nice made, and it do rust. Now im talking about the iron, and the preserve paint. Ive seen many bad 20 cores in EK1 - 2, maybe a help for you KC hunters?
Mikael

[Dave Kane]

Great photo!!! No doubt about the date as the evidence is clear...however, who will offer a guess at the 'maker' of the Cross?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Looking at the picture in Detlev's book on page 481, lableled a) I go along with Pieter: It is a Juncker. Now why Detlev is putting this cross in a separate column, i.e. "Iron Core, first awarded type i 1939" and not into the next one "Juncker, non-magnetic center, unmarked" I do not know.
From what I can see, it's the same frame anyway.

So the first series of RK's was made by Juncker (or at least one of them). This somehow goes against the stories of master engraver Escher doing the dies, i.e. S&L. But one cannot argue with solid evidence.

That leaves us with the cross that started the discussion. 'Latvian' style fake or what?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Dietrich, I could never prove it nor intend to, but the cross that started this thread just looks wrong to me. Finish, beading, core, all combine to me to appear as the 1870 repros out there. But that's not a reflection on the author nor a reflection on authored creations. As some of us know, discoveries still being made and this could have been one of them. And may well be, but in my opinion, at this time, it will take proof to make it real. Doesn't diminish the authored work it came from. From what I've seen over the past few years, few awards are being shown by family members. They are from dealers and from collectors. It would be a very skinny reference book if only pieces still in the hands of family members were published.