Are Klein and Zimmerman DKiG wreaths identical?

[tom hansen]

Anyone else out there have zimmermans or kleins that can supply some shots of these areas? Areas of interest


1. wreath at 12 oclock
2. date
3. wreath at 7:00
4 wreath at 3:30-4:00
5. wreath at 2:30


Thanks

[George Stimson]

I don't have pics right off the bat, but all of my four Zimmermanns (three light, one heavy) and my one Klein have the "rivet effect" at 12 o'clock.

[Erickn]

more interesting is this- same flaw as the zimmerman here. Do you have a close-up of the 2:30 and 3:30 areas I posted as well, Eric?

Thanks

Here is the 2:30

[Erickn]

One more

[Erickn]

12:00 High

[tom hansen]

Here they are

[tom hansen]

and here

[tom hansen]

and here as well

[George Stimson]

All of my Zimmermanns and the Klein have those, too.

[tom hansen]

All of my Zimmermanns and the Klein have those, too.

And while we are at it, another one of the flaws that are on the klein and zimmerman.

[tom hansen]

So with all these identical small flaws on both makers, why is there some small differences? They have to be the either the same die, or mother/daughter dies.

[IVAN]

Hi guys,

sorry for late, I missed the thread

thanks to all for the good closed photos .

They show, IMO, are from same die, in heavy 20 die is clear and nice, with the time, show flaws, these seams they used always the same die. Same problem as in Juncker's wreaths of cloth version.

As you can see from this thread, are from the same die , 20 and 14 wreaths.

Seba will update DK's article with some photos of my L/52, where you will see its wreath done with another die.

this is a reference thread for 20's and 134's wreath.....

[tom hansen]

Thanks for the post, Ivan. Your opinion is always very helpful and appreciated. So despite the differences between the wreaths of the light zimmerman, heavy zimmerman, and klein, you feel as though this is a single die with minor differences in flawing due to wear over time? I can certainly buy that, as flaws have been shown to progress and appear on other pieces over time. Either the same die with progression of flaws or the "mother/daughter" die seems the most likely, as it would be nearly impossible to replicate the small similiar flaws among the pieces.


Let us take this a step further then.

1.IF these are the same die, would then one expect those pieces with additional flawing on the date to be later pieces?

2. How does one account for the differences in the appearance of the left lower corner of the "4" which has been demonstrated here?

3. Are the slight differences in wreaths among these pieces due to the stamping process, or evidence of a mother/daughter die?

I guess while we are at it, the sunburst flaw should be shown for the zimmerman, which can be seen here as well in the photo below.


Ivan- Can you start a new thread on the details of the L/52 zimmerman? Thanks

[George Stimson]

"Sunburst" Flaw

My light Zimmermanns and my Klein have this feature. The heavy Zimm does not.

[tom hansen]

My light Zimmermanns and my Klein have this feature. The heavy Zimm does not.

Both my heavy and light zimmermans AND the klein have this. Check again, George. Thanks