Are Klein and Zimmerman DKiG wreaths identical?

[tom hansen]

This question has been brought up several times without a clear concensus. Also the question has been raised of how much minor variation within a maker is an acceptable degree of difference due to finishing, wear, or how the piece was struck. I have scanned around a few Kleins and zimmermans and have seen subtle differences between the two makers.


1. Are the wreaths identical?

2. Did these two manufacturers share parts, such as the wreaths?

[vonStubben]

Tom,

I own both a lightweight Zimmerman maker marked 20 (presently for sale on the e-stand), as well as an Otto Klein (134). Both are 100% original, worn examples, that were both U.S. veteran bring backs, the Zimmerman having just been purchased from the vet 8 weeks ago.

I believe that I can say without any doubt that they are indeed identical. There may be some (very) minor differences noted within each wreath, but I contribute these differences to be from the pressure of the die at the time of their stamping, etc. The shaping of each leaf, including the veining, and even the "flaws" found within each wreath, appear to be identical. The dates are also the same, including their particular flaws, as are the wreath ribbons, and the furling seen within each of the ribbon bands, which are identical to one another too.

I have spent many hours studying both medals, and their wreaths (plus their other similarities), having read many times that there are supposed to be differences between the two, but I really do not believe this to be true. In my honest opinion they are completely the same, and believe my findings to be true and accurate.

Chuck

This question has been brought up several times without a clear concensus. Also the question has been raised of how much minor variation within a maker is an acceptable degree of difference due to finishing, wear, or how the piece was struck. I have scanned around a few Kleins and zimmermans and have seen subtle differences between the two makers.


1. Are the wreaths identical?

2. Did these two manufacturers share parts, such as the wreaths?

[Jim Baker]

Agreed. Thanks Chuck.

[Chris Taylor]

Ditto above.

[tom hansen]

Ditto above.

Thanks Chuck-

I see consistent differences between the klein and zimmerman. The differences are subtle, and may be due as you point out, to differences in die pressure within the same die. This may be due, of course, to sample size, as I have examined the pieces I have in hand as well as the photos as they pop up on the forum. These differences, as can be seen clearly on the dates of the zimmerman and klein on the crosses reference section, would appear to be much more variablity for what is considered "identical" on other badges. Interestingly, however, I have a heavy zimmerman (presumably from the same die as the light zimmerman) which shows some subtle differences to its lighter cousin as well. The differences seen are small, and not marked differences as seen on some of the fakes, such as the dotted zimmerman DKiG and the klein that Marcus H had posted some time ago. That being said, Dietrich posted a juncker that had very subtle differences compared to period pieces, which was determined by Detlev to be a fake.


1. Is the stamping process different for the wreaths of these pieces such that the small differences are acceptable?

2. Did Klein and Zimmerman share completed wreaths, or are the differences we are seeing due to a "mother/daughter" die for this componant?

My brother in law was over for mother's day and confirmed what Dietrich had stated about the die and stamping process, in that a large "mock up" is made and the smaller die is created by a translation process in which a smaller piece is made at whatever size ratio is desired. With the creation of more than one die, he said it is nearly impossible to reproduce all the minute flaws with a mother/daughter die in this process. The finished dies will be nearly imperceptable, but will have some subtle differences. Is this what we are seeing here, or simply a result of the stamping process, or are the klein and zimmerman truely different?

[vonStubben]

Tom,

You pose some very interesting questions. Perhaps others will have a say in regard to them as well.

I can only say that the wreaths on my two examples are definately the same as one another, no doubt about it, but the highlights of the Klein wreath are much more pronounced (sharp and clear) than those on the Zimmerman. But, as long as we have this thread going, I would like to add what other immediate aspects of each cross seem nearly the same, yet differ slightly.

I have noted that my Klein is exactly 63 mm wide and weighs 46.2 grams. The Zimmerman is only 62.50 mm wide (a second die, or is it due to being just a wee bit more convex in shape?) and weighs 44.5 grams. The hollow rivits on my Klein have smaller, flatter, edges than the larger, rounder edged, "donut" looking rivits on my Zimmerman, suggesting to me that a totally different type of tool was used to crimp them into place. The hinge retaining pin (running through the barrel of the main pin) on my Klein, is rounded on each end, protruding just slightly from the outer edges of the hinge, while the hinge pin on the Zimmerman is flush/flat with the outside edges of it's hinge. The "C" catch on the Klein takes on an almost exact shape of a letter "C", and measures just a tad over 3mm's wide, while the catch on the Zimmerman has a much longer "tail", where it attaches to the recessed mounting plate, yet measures the same width as the other (these differences are clearly seen in most photographs though). Also noted is that the overall finishes of each cross differ slightly, but that is to be expected given the different finishing processes of each firm.

Chuck


[Tom Hansen]Thanks Chuck-

I see consistent differences between the klein and zimmerman. The differences are subtle, and may be due as you point out, to differences in die pressure within the same die. This may be due, of course, to sample size, as I have examined the pieces I have in hand as well as the photos as they pop up on the forum. These differences, as can be seen clearly on the dates of the zimmerman and klein on the crosses reference section, would appear to be much more variablity for what is considered "identical" on other badges. Interestingly, however, I have a heavy zimmerman (presumably from the same die as the light zimmerman) which shows some subtle differences to its lighter cousin as well. The differences seen are small, and not marked differences as seen on some of the fakes, such as the dotted zimmerman DKiG and the klein that Marcus H had posted some time ago. That being said, Dietrich posted a juncker that had very subtle differences compared to period pieces, which was determined by Detlev to be a fake.


1. Is the stamping process different for the wreaths of these pieces such that the small differences are acceptable?

2. Did Klein and Zimmerman share completed wreaths, or are the differences we are seeing due to a "mother/daughter" die for this componant?

My brother in law was over for mother's day and confirmed what Dietrich had stated about the die and stamping process, in that a large "mock up" is made and the smaller die is created by a translation process in which a smaller piece is made at whatever size ratio is desired. With the creation of more than one die, he said it is nearly impossible to reproduce all the minute flaws with a mother/daughter die in this process. The finished dies will be nearly imperceptable, but will have some subtle differences. Is this what we are seeing here, or simply a result of the stamping process, or are the klein and zimmerman truely different?[/QUOTE]

[IVAN]

Hello,

In my opinion wreath are the same.

Nobody know if they come from 2 different dies or both from one....

[tom hansen]

Hello,

In my opinion wreath are the same.

Nobody know if they come from 2 different dies or both from one....

Thanks guys. If they were from the same die, would not the very subtle flaws be the same? Is this "transcription" process of creating a second die a possibility for the differences? There are interesting identical flaws on both makers, particularly the circular "blob" that is present on the wreath at 12 oclock, but yet small differences in the wreath.

The rivets are definately different, and that has been discussed before, with the Klein having small, finer rivets. There is a definite difference in the sunbursts as well, in that the Kleins lack the flaw on the sunburst at about 10 oclock that the zimmermans show.

[IVAN]

Hi Tom,

reverse components are all differents from 20 to 134, ( hinge, rivets, catch and material ) and this suppose that they made by 2 different fabrics.

Wreaths can come from same firm who has done only wreaths ( remember wreaths in cloth version )

dies were not only 1 type but minimum 2 types as we know for sure for zimmermann firm , 1 for marked "20" and one for marked "L/52".

So, is possible that they have done more then 1 die to made Zimmermann DKiG's marked "20"......but , sure, they has done very closed between them.

[tom hansen]

Thanks Ivan-



A second, or daughter die, would explain the exact shape of the banner, leaves, shape of the date, and the large flaw at 12 oclock, while still having small subtle differences on minor flaws. Interestingly, the heavy zimmerman, which are presumably earlier that the light zimmermans and kleins, has a more pronounced flaw, appearing more like a crater, at the position at 12 oclock where the later zimmerman and klein have the "blob", with a smooth filled in center. Also, the flaw on the sunburst is the same as the light version.

Would you suspect that the presence of the gap in the hypotenuse of the "4", and extension of the flaw in the "9" more superiorly would indicate later production as well? These differences are not seen on the heavy zimmerman example I have.

[vonStubben]

Tom,

I just want to add that I believe the flaw in the 12 o'clock position of each wreath, is actually where the 12 o'clock rivit post is located, and attached to the back of the wreath, hidden from view. Why there is always this mark visible upon the obverse is not known to me, because I have never seen one taken apart in order to study how it was formed.

Chuck

Thanks Ivan-



A second, or daughter die, would explain the exact shape of the banner, leaves, shape of the date, and the large flaw at 12 oclock, while still having small subtle differences on minor flaws. Interestingly, the heavy zimmerman, which are presumably earlier that the light zimmermans and kleins, has a more pronounced flaw, appearing more like a crater, at the position at 12 oclock where the later zimmerman and klein have the "blob", with a smooth filled in center. Also, the flaw on the sunburst is the same as the light version.

Would you suspect that the presence of the gap in the hypotenuse of the "4", and extension of the flaw in the "9" more superiorly would indicate later production as well? These differences are not seen on the heavy zimmerman example I have.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The 12 o'clock dimple flaw (at a Klein 134).

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Here it is on a heavy zimmerman

[tom hansen]

here on a klein

[tom hansen]

here on a light zimmerman