A Study of the Godet Style PlM

[regular122]

Just to clarify,

The 1914 Godet Ek1 silver frame was made from a different die than
the 1914 Ek2.

Thanks for the correction Greg. I am assuming these obverse frames could be used on either class of award? Steve

[Zepenthusiast]

I had thought we had seen an image of the maker and content marks, but after review of the relevant threads and Detlev's site, it would appear that view was not among the posted images from Wulff's groups. The nature of the mark--font, spacing, etc., may also prove useful in dating them; we are going by basic description only at this point. Another thing to ask if the owner would mind sharing an image.

[Brian S]

OK, for the record, PlM Number 4,730 was awarded to Otto Emmich on 7.8.1914, the first in WWI.

The final PlM was awarded on 4.12.1918 to Paul Bencke, number 5,414 and one awarded post WWI in 1919 to a final number of 5,414.

Now do the math, please...

4,730 inclusive to 5,414, 685 PlMs in their entirety in WWI.

A spare PlM was not awarded to Opa upon his oaks. He had to make do with that nasty little Wagner they gave him originally.

685 awarded PlMs.

Now, this question to the reasonable man out there, how many dies did Godet need to support their share of the market? Let's remember, Godet not Wagner... And the educated person knows the difference between Wagner's role in PlM versus Godet.

Do NOT compare how many dies Godet had for EKIIs, please, that is just a nonsense comment to compare to this Order.

685 total PlMs in WWI. Now to the reasonable man out there, how stressed and strained was the Godet die up to the end of the war and given their 'role' in official awarded PlMs, just how many dies does the reasonable man think Godet had for PlMs up to the end of WWI?

My guess, and I'm not reasonable so I'm told, but I'll offer my opinion...

One.

I get the impression Steve, Mr. Regular, is not pleased with my comentary. Blame it on the mad cow. But I'm not a believer in all these variations of "wartime" Godet PlMs.

[Brian S]

So we can see a bit better without back posting, and with even better photos now of the Wulff PlMs, I am posting this side by side pic for the continuing Wulff discussion. Many thanks to the owner and to Detlev for their kindness in assisting this discussion. Steve

I know from experience how difficult it is to photograph the PlM and get the Prussian Blue in its natural color.

Question to owner: Is the enamel EXACTLY the same color on both crosses? And, is the enamel quality excellent in both examples?

[Les]

I know from experience how difficult it is to photograph the PlM and get the Prussian Blue in its natural color.

Question to owner: Is the enamel EXACTLY the same color on both crosses? And, is the enamel quality excellent in both examples?

Brian, on the subject of enamel, the color of true glass enamel isn't that difficult for a trained jeweler who works with real enamel to match, or repair.

The usual basis for claims a recipient might want a second, third, or umpteenth wearing copy is to protect the original. A good jeweler can repair a chipped piece by adding a patch in a way similar to a glass repair shop fixing a cracked or chipped windscreen on a vehicle. Another way is to heat the piece up, drop it in ice-water and all the old enamel comes off, and the piece can be entirely re-enameled to a like-new condition. It's not that hard to do, and doesn't take all that long. it is in fact, far less labor and materials expensive than buying more.

During the period of time when the PlM and other orders were being handed out, they came with an award document. The award document conveyed royal permission to own and publicly wear a specific award. Orders often conveyed a stipend, sometimes a title, etc.

The document was a very important item, and arguably, more important than the actual device being worn. The medal represented something, but the document conveyed a series of rights or entitlements. If pension benefits were part of the package, the document -had- to be included as part of any claims for benefits.

The PlM was required to be returned on the death of the recipient. The recipient was in essence a caretaker of the PlM, and the award document permitted him to ask for a replacement if the original piece was lost or damaged. If damaged, he could send it in and ask for a new one if he wanted.

That is a point far too many people tend to forget, or have never realized. During the Imperial era, a recipient didn't really require protecting the original awarded piece, because it....wasn't his at all; it belonged to the head of the order, the King of Prussia, who permitted pieces to be replaced if lost, or repaired if damaged.

The words "wearer's copy" or "replacement copy" may be more akin to the words "dealer's copy" or "collector's hopes." Caveat emptor.

[Brian S]

Les, my only question there about the color was simply if Godet during/near/exactly the same period, Godet's PlM colors should be consistent I would think. If the colors are not exactly the same it makes me think 'copy' and not necessarily Godet.

Your other points about replacement are spot on. It's entirely possible my Opa broke his Wagner and the one I have is a replacement but I doubt it. My mother was a real interested person in her father's career and she spent time with him looking at his awards and his stories.

I'm getting her on film for some of the reasons mentioned above. She knew him. It's firsthand information. Word of mouth from generation to generation suffers... Put in the profit motive and perhaps stories become embellished, not an accusation, but a general comment.

I have to record my mother because I can not remember everything she tells me word for word. Having her words recorded there is no danger in my embellishment. For us, it's a grouping that cannot be denied today. Tomorrow, a few generations from now, replacement PlMs start creeping into the grouping, facts become distorted. It's not entirely realistic that my posts here survive the next 50 years. Her HD Blu-Ray movies will survive.

[regular122]

Jim, I will try to obtain clear pics of the maker marks on these two Wulff awards. I have some now that the owner provided but they are not of the best quality. Too much flash to adequately study.

Good move Brian on the film archive. That will be invaluable to your family most of all.

On to the discssion.

I simply do not understand the line of argument that second awards in possession of recipients were rare. Evidence speaks to the contrary. That Godet sold silver-gilt examples after 1916 until the end of the war is well established.

And Godets, even if not awarded, were popular. Kurt Wuestoff, a 1917 recipient, preferred it in his Sanke photos. Ernst Udet documents his own experience in his memoirs about how he obtained a Godet to immediately wear upon hearing of his PlM award before his Wagner could be presented to him and that was on a tip from another recipient (Wenninger) about where to get it. Udet wears it in several Sanke photos, even months later. Fritz Rumey wears a Godet in his PlM Sanke photo in July 1918.

Many wartime examples of Godets with post 1916 marks survive and many with provenance. Von Stein's Godet was even mounted with his Oak Leaves. Egidy's PlM was awarded in late October 1918. Like Wulff, no Wagner award, if he ever had one, survived to my knowledge, but his Godet is among his group of decorations. If he did have a Wagner, well, then it is another example of owning two.

The facts relating to a Godet jeweler's award in possession of recipients even during the war is pretty clear and even how one obtained it. Many are known to have possessed Godets (e.g., von Stein, Egidy, Krause, Otto, Tescher, Lenz, Wuestoff, Udet, and Rumey, to name a few).

It is also established that Godet could and did make customer ordered, unique variants of their basic cross with wartime marks during the war (e.g., Krause).

To date, I have not seen the wartime mark of 'J.G.u.S. 938' on an interwar manufactured cross. There is a moon and crown with 938, a 925, and even silver gilts with no marks at all, but I've not seen the standard wartime marks on interwar manufactured crosses.

The cow can dance around these facts if he wishes.

Now some speculation.

The argument that only 687 PlMs were awarded to WWI recipients can also be used Brian to argue that there would be LESS of a need in the interwar period for new dies due to production drop and demand as no more were ever going to be awarded. Why should they make new dies when there were being less produced? And the whole argument of dies may not be due to use at all but rather specific style or type for sale. I don't know. But I do know we have two Wulff Godets with wartime marks and a family claim of 1918 purchase--and they have some obverse differences to suggest different dies.

All of this is not to suggest an open barn door for the 'jeweler's knock off' of dubious appearance and collector hopes. But it is to focus on the two wartime marked Godet crosses of Wulff at hand now that few would dispute are authentic Godets. Surely, a reasonable man is not disputing their authenticity. If one believes them authentic but not produced during the war, then why the wartime marks?

In addition to the wartime marks, one area not commented much with regard to the Wulff awards is the fact that the shallow 'M' award is hollow. Stephen P cites in Prussian Blue how 938 hollow transitional pieces were made in very small numbers in the switch from gold to silver. Detlev correctly states that this hollow J.G.u.S. 938 of Wulff's is extremely rare. I am not aware of another surviving one with or without provenance. I do not know whether it could be a 1916-1917 transitional hollow piece or not. Regardless, Wulff would certainly have had the means to purchase whatever he wished from any stock on hand.

Great discussions and intriguing Wulff crosses--provenance, Godet wartime 938 marks, slightly different appearance. Steve

[Brian S]

I never doubted anyone's desire to purchase a second cross or purchase a PlM for any reason. I have a photograph of Opa on the day he won his PlM. Striking in the photograph, is the absence of a PlM. When it arrived is anyone's guess. If EasternFront GodetMart were a little more handy I have NO doubt he or one of his staff would have purchased a PlM from GodetMart to make that photo complete. So no question there.

But let's stay focused on this set of Godet PlMs, not all the other permutations of everyone else's motives to purchase crosses...

You discuss motive to buy a Godet because it looks better on Sanke card photos to the recipients or so you might believe because a host of winners bought the PlMs from Godet. I wonder... Sanke cards were an industry for a country hungry for heroes. That means they had to send a photographer to the front or nab him in Berlin for a photo opportunity. It is NOT inconceivable that the photographer had a PlM just for these occcasions and that he was more than welcomed by the Kaiserliche authorities to carry it to the hero to get the photo. A sanke hero card sans PlM is not a complete photo. So did all these guys own PlMs or did they merely wear the PlM for the occasion. Opa, although certainly not sought after by the Sanke folks, had no PlM to flash for his photographer.

I have 200 wartime propaganda photos of Luftwarffe RK winners. Many of them with photo pasted RKs and/or Oaks on old photos. WWI, you don't see that especially as a 'rule' as with the WWII photos. I know nothing about the Sanke photographers but common sense says the photo of these heroes would ALWAYS be with a PlM and/or Oaks and that the studio photographer would have the PlM to oblige. And what PlM would he have, a Godet of course!

But yes groupings do show PlMs in the lot. As you say the Wagner may have been lost or damaged irrepairably to demand a new PlM or the wearer PREFERRED the Wagner look.

Wulff ALREADY HAD A Godet, so the "look" was already his. No need for another Godet in photo ops.

You mention Godet made PlMs to order. I can't imagine recipients coming into the shop and say "mold me a special one". Godet PlMs must be cast not from a die to accomplish this one off feat... I thought a Godet PlM was from a die... Godet isn't making dies one off for anyone and then throwing out the die.

The only reason I personally could imagine the need for a Godet is to protect the treasure of the Wagner PlM which is so very light and breakable. The cost of a Godet be damned, protect your PlM. That I understand. But you already have a Godet, a copy, why buy another when only the back is chipped. And we were originaly told that was postwar.

Is the hollow version as you say a wartime made Godet purchased who cares when?

1) To what degree have we seen the maker mark of Godet on this cross examined to other Godet marks to be absolutely sure it matches the Godet mark?

2) Again, does the color perfectly match or doesn't it? I believe it should. Yes jewelers can copy but Godet wouldn't have needed to copy anything as they had a stock of glass and color that one would presume would match perfectly especially during this "transition period". No special lot of glass/color would have been necessary for such a "short" period.

I can believe the Godet PlM is wartime, but match the mark, match the color.

Finally, no one likes this injected into the conversation and it was ignored when injected above, but, and this hurts, but Frau Klietmann always has a presence in the face of Godet when it comes to any Godet award that just doesn't quite make sense.

Transitional Piece: Wulff was awarded the PlM certificate in October 1918. Why would he have a transitional piece from 1916/17? That's not logical. Transitional another word for "we (Godet) didn't get it right so we built a new one." PlMs that weren't "quite right" would hardly be passed out by Godet in 1918 that were made in 1916/17 when the new model was available if indeed the "transitional piece" ever existed.

[Les]

938 doesnt mean it has to be war-time

I'm going to repeat what has been said about silver marks again. Silver stamp marks of 800 are considered post-war, but "wartime" marks did not magically end at 11AM, 11 November 1918. The "wartime" markings continued into the Weimar era. A piece marked 800 is generally ruled out from being "wartime", although a piece marked 938 does not automatically mean it could ONLY have been made during the war.

If someone takes the time to hunt down the German silver content mark regulations, they would know when the mandated minimum silver content marks too effect. I'll give the readers a hint: it happened after the Versailles Treaty, and the post-war currency inflationary period and monetary reforms.

[Les]

Shops and businesses don't like making "one-off" examples unless the buyer is willing to place a minimal order, or to pay for the entire cost of making new dies/tooling/setup costs, etc. The amount of time, labor, resources, etc, to make -one- or even a limited production run of items during a wartime economy when manpower, materials, fuel is costly or not available except for critical wartime industries, and additional resources are all in demand, requires considerable justification for non-essentials.

A decade ago, a Spanish collector approached the Cejalvo firm about having a PlM copy made. He was quoted a price for having dies made, etc, etc. The price was high, and in order to negotiate a "reasonable price", Cejalvo agreed to making a limited production run provided he bought at least....TEN. He didn't want to buy ten for himself, so he looked around and found nine other collectors who would buy one. I acquired one of them from one of his friends who sold his to me...at cost. It wasn't cheap.

Steve, you mentioned Udet, and several others with more than one PlM. The Udet example is frequently quoted, and I've done so myself. There's a bit more to that story however. Udet wanted to impress his fiance the day he received his prelimanary telegram notice, which arrived before the award document and actual medal could be handed to him. The urge to have his girlfriend see him wearing the medal was all he was concerned about, not who the maker was, or to protect "the original" or even to have a spare. He didn't have one to wear, and he wanted one immediately.

In his book he describes meeting another recipient and enquiring where he could get one. He doesn't say what type of PlM the officer was wearing, and it should not be assumed it was a Godet, or Wagner. It's not known nor can either be assumed.

You've frequently mentioned the inscribed single-sided Godet. Remember, the man didn't buy it for himself, it was presented to him by officers on his staff. We don't know whether he wore it or not. We know it's attributed to him, but please remember he didn't buy it for a "second" or wearing copy.

Yes, some officers did have a second one, however, what is not always known is when did they acquire a second one, what the circumstances were, or was it "gifted" as sometimes happens when officers have friends/admirers, doting wives or parents, or a supportive staff?

Steve, since you mentioned the 938 silver mark as a "wartime" marks, please turn to page 92 of Prussian Blue. On that page is Arthur Lauman's PlM. Previtera notes that it was made "circa 1920" and it has some interesting markings, one of which happens to be a 938 silver mark, in addition to a cresent moon, crown, and JGUS.

As Brian has already pointed out, and I've repeated and which seems to be ignored, the 938 silver marking which is found on wartime pieces doesn't mean the marking wasn't used well after the end of the war.

[Les]

[quote=Brian S;3741336]I never doubted anyone's desire to purchase a second cross or purchase a PlM for any reason. I have a photograph of Opa on the day he won his PlM. Striking in the photograph, is the absence of a PlM. When it arrived is anyone's guess. If EasternFront GodetMart were a little more handy I have NO doubt he or one of his staff would have purchased a PlM from GodetMart to make that photo complete. So no question there.

<snip>

You discuss motive to buy a Godet because it looks better on Sanke card photos to the recipients or so you might believe because a host of winners bought the PlMs from Godet. I wonder... Sanke cards were an industry for a country hungry for heroes. That means they had to send a photographer to the front or nab him in Berlin for a photo opportunity. It is NOT inconceivable that the photographer had a PlM just for these occcasions and that he was more than welcomed by the Kaiserliche authorities to carry it to the hero to get the photo. A sanke hero card sans PlM is not a complete photo. So did all these guys own PlMs or did they merely wear the PlM for the occasion. Opa, although certainly not sought after by the Sanke folks, had no PlM to flash for his photographer.

I have 200 wartime propaganda photos of Luftwarffe RK winners. Many of them with photo pasted RKs and/or Oaks on old photos. WWI, you don't see that especially as a 'rule' as with the WWII photos. I know nothing about the Sanke photographers but common sense says the photo of these heroes would ALWAYS be with a PlM and/or Oaks and that the studio photographer would have the PlM to oblige. And what PlM would he have, a Godet of course!

But yes groupings do show PlMs in the lot. As you say the Wagner may have been lost or damaged irrepairably to demand a new PlM or the wearer PREFERRED the Wagner look.

<snipped>

Brian,

During the American Civil War, more than a few photographers carried a set of equipment with them to training camps, etc, so that recruits could send a photo of themselves home not only in uniform but with weapons and so on.

There is a well-known photograph of a PlM awarded to Doestler who flew with Richtofen. Doestler received his prelimanary telegraph notifying him and his commander the award had been granted and was on it's way, and in a party that evening, Richtofen took off his own PlM and put it around Doestler's neck so he could be photographed wearing it.

Could Doestler have waited until the award actually arrived? Maybe, however, the incident shows he wanted to be seen wearing one ASAP ! We already know Udet wanted one ASAP to impress Lola, his girlfriend, later wife, and then ex-wife and didn't want to wait until his presentation piece arrived and for a formal bestowal.

Since so much speculation seems to be turning up in this thread, let's not rule out the idea that "wearing copies" or "seconds" may not be seconds at all, but someone who bought one because he couldn't wait for the formal presentation document and accompanying medal to arrive. Take the thought one step further, and if the need to have the medal drives someone to have his medal ASAP, it's not to protect an original he doesn't yet have, but to have it because he can't wait.

Brian, I think you'll like this idea. This doesn't require any additional comments, but it's something to think about regarding sentimentality, and why people stick with an item, despite wanting "another", possible damage, etc. Imagine the wife saying she wanted another wedding ring to protect her wedding day ring. She tells you she wants to keep the piece safe, and protect it from damage. Or...she says she doesn't like the one you gave her and bought another one she liked better. Alternatively, think what would happen if any married man told his wife he wasn't wearing the one she gave him on their wedding day, because he liked another style ring? Most married guys know better than to suggest to their wives they want another wedding ring than the one given on their wedding day.

Although there are similarities and dissimilarities between a wedding ring and a Pour le Merite, most people aren't about to buy an entirely new wedding and additional ring because they are concerned about protecting it from damage, etc.

[regular122]

Les, Brian,

I heartily agree with Les on the Godet being acquired for expediency. In fact, that was much of my point in the examples above. I think folks like Edigy and Wulff may even be included in that, or it just could have been that no Wagner was ever to become available.

I am not so much in the 'protecting the original' mentality as some are and agree that it was more likely so one could be obtained for immediate wear. Even so, they seemed to like them. Brian's speculation about the traveling photographer example may be possible, but then Udet's Godet was both acquired quickly and worn in later Sanke photos, showing he likely kept wearing it.

As to the Udet acquisition, I never claimed that the tip from the other recipient meant he had one (although a possibility if he knew where to obtain it) but only stated that he gave the tip where Udet could get one.

I may have an opportunity to get more info on the crosses and while I believe Brian the colors do match, based on the pics of what the previous and current owners have sent. I will ask the current owner.

And I agree Les that the marks appearing after 1918 are certainly possible, I just do not believe they were on anything but perhaps wartime stock. If wartime produced, then it is in my mind a wartime cross. The Laumann cross I mentioned earlier as divided on whether wartime or not based on the added moon and crown. Most think later.

Brian, I perhaps did not make myself understood on the transitional cross. They were transitional not for the need to move to something better but rather they were following the former methods of hollow construction when working with expensive gold. As silver was not scarce, the hollow construction technique did not have a cost benefit to the time needed to create it. Hence, they stopped the practice at the known firms that made them. But they were considered very high quality. If Wullf wanted high quality (which is certainly possible) then this would be a desirable cross for him to own. With the family claim (if true) that he bought them at the same time, then something along that line has to be considered as motivation. We will never know. But I think it more possible the hollow cross is wartime rather than not. Steve

PS - GodetMart. Would love to find that shop.

[Brian S]

Steve, for the record, I'm not yet convinced it's even Godet... At least pre-1945.

Les, thanks, I think you 'get' me. As Les seems to agree, all the photos with heroes and the PlMs they are wearing, not necessarily their PlM.

My point with GodetMart was that access to new Orders was not conceivable on the frontline. My Opa was a couple of miles from the collapsing Western Front in commond of a Corps. No dealer or storefront was available.

Pilots died unexpectedly and often. They especially would have as mentioned wanted their photos taken quickly and with ANY PLM available. Again, not necessarily their own.

And yes Les, I'm SURE my Opa didn't have ANY DESIRE TO OWN A GODET, he had his Wagner... But, he did need a miniature and that turned out to be a Godet. Could have purchased a Godet full size at the same time, chose otherwise. The wedding ring analogy is superb.

[Zepenthusiast]

I have found some potentially useful information in Edkins' well-known The Prussian Orden Pour le Merite. As this is an academic-nature discussion, I would hope my posting the scanned images and quoting the text, properly attributed, will not infringe the copyright. (I will of course remove any and all should any concern be raised.)

On page 32, Edkins states :

"The author has inspected a hollow silver badge with the semi-circle suspension. The edge of the semi-circle was stamped with the word "Silber." It was of the style and variety next described.

Some badges have been seen with heavier and cruder quality eagles between the cross arms. The eagle's head and neck are larger. The breasts of the eagles resemble an arrowhead or triangle and the hips are squared rather than rounded. The feet and hips blend together, instead of being joined by the straight, slender leg. The tailfeathers are less full and straighter as they extend into the corners of the cross arms. These badges are generally encountered in silver gilt and bronze gilt. They all have the filled semi-circle suspension. Most are of solid construction and are generally poorly finished on the edges. Most are usually unmarked and their manufacturer cannot be determined. The crown is usually chased on this variety of the Pour le Merite. The author has not seen this type made from gold and believes this to be a post war manufacture. A silver gilt example of this type badge measures 53 mm from tip to tip and is 2-3mm thick. It weighs 21.2 grams and is not hallmarked.

Jeweler marks and silver content were sometimes stamped into the edge or rim of the semi-circle segment. One example examined was marked "900" and "S1185" in this area. Another was markd AK on the back rim of the segment."

[David Edkins The Prussian Orden Pour le Merite p.32]

Pages 33 and 34 were photos, and this image was on page 34, labeled "Pour le Merite, Eagle Variation":

[/IMG]

On page 42 is this image (in the discussion of crown types):


[/IMG]

I believe the latter is a "typical Schickle" and the former would seem identical to the hollow variant under discussion, in terms of appearance--narrower waist and the unusual-looking M. The syntax of Edkins' book suggests that where possible, he displayed photos of particular crosses he was describing, but it is of course uncertain in this instance whether the image is that of the hollow cross or another from his library of examples. He notably does not include any photos of what we would consider the classic wartime Godet in his book and it is not clear he was necessarily familiar with such a distinction. That this type was apparently one he had run into, perhaps in multiple iterations/materials, and regarded as probable postwar can be left to the interpretation of the reader whether it should be applied to the pictured cross or what we would consider a Godet type in general. The hollow version he does describe in particular as bearing only "Silber" as a marking, and not the 938 JGUS under discussion.

I'm going to post this then run down the thread to cross-check (? pun intended) the weight...

[Zepenthusiast]

No weight listed for the hollow silver gilt cross in Detlev's description. Perhaps the owner has the information and would be willing to share it as well (we are asking a bit of him!)

My fear would be that mad cow critter works at the Godet-mart.