A Study of the Godet Style PlM

[regular122]

So we can see a bit better without back posting, and with even better photos now of the Wulff PlMs, I am posting this side by side pic for the continuing Wulff discussion. Many thanks to the owner and to Detlev for their kindness in assisting this discussion. Steve

[Brian S]

Very helpful. These are from two different dies IMHO.

[Zepenthusiast]

The eagle identified as belonging to Paul's bronze gilt cross has a very distinctive wing feather pattern at the lower left, near where the wing joins the body, which rules out it being made from the same die as the classic Godet, necks aside. Other feather patterns, including tail, likewise suggest they are not of the same origin, but are close enough to make it a possibly hard sell. The wing feather could not be the result of any finishing variation, however. I couldn't find a clear shot of the corresponding eagle on the Meybauer, but what I could see suggests a potential match. Obviously you could rule this in or out easily, Steve. A two-sided Meybauer, or cast from the one-sided and "doubled up?"

The owner of the Wulff group did indeed do a good thing in keeping the grouping together. The individual is also kind to support indirectly this discussion and especially to offer you a scan of the Wulff photo, Steve. Hopefully permission will be given to post it! Perspective can be confusing, so presence of a pie slice would trump the apparent spacing of the arms, for sure.

As regards the Wulff family, unless they specifically told Detlev there was no Wagner cross, one could hardly hold it against them if they yet held onto the issue piece, even if willing to sell the documentation. If they did, they may have chosen to disclose this to no one (it being no one else's business.) When Detlev gets back, perhaps he can flesh out some more of the history of these transactions from him own recollection, too.

[regular122]

More info to come but in the meantime, a comment about the two Wulff PlMs.

Eagles aside, and accounting for traced vice clear lettering, I cannot see enough to distinguish these two crosses as being from different dies except maybe the 'M.' That does not mean that they are not, it just means that the obvious differentiating points are not leaping out at me. Still, one is hollow, so they are obviously different.

So, with that, lets hear what these obverse differentiating points might be for discussion. In the meantime, I have some info coming that will aid the discussion even further on Wulff and his crosses. Steve

[Brian S]

I would concentrate on the pie wedge pebbleing to determine the die source if we're convinced the eagles are too hand worked to make a determination and the lettering isn't a determinent, so...

The pie wedge if photos are available to that minutia.

[regular122]

Here is the picture of Wulff. He is clearly wearing a Godet. If I had to hazard a guess, I should think the hollow version since it is nicer quality. Impossible to tell in the pic, but not impossible to tell it is a Godet.

MANY thanks to the owner for permission to use the photo and providing an enormous scan with some detailed information. Below are some pics used with permission. Steve

[regular122]

And a nice shot of Wulff and his one of his Godets. Photos used with permission of the owner of the Wulff group. Steve

[regular122]

I would concentrate on the pie wedge pebbleing to determine the die source if we're convinced the eagles are too hand worked to make a determination and the lettering isn't a determinent, so...

The pie wedge if photos are available to that minutia.

This is about as close as I could get Brian with the scans at hand.

I am seeing enough now to believe like you that maybe they are different dies.

Raises interesting questions. How many did they have? Did they have them for solid, hollow and one-sided examples? We are seeing enough variations on the eagles and centers, the dropped 'M', the 'F' placement under crown and the crown itself to raise these questions yet all are authentic Godets. With that pin out of the grenade, now what....Steve

[Brian S]

He's definitely wearing a Godet. Photo was taken when? He looks older but of course he wasn't a young man during WWI.

Looking at the pie wedges I am not seeing the patterns of what is visible to both repeated on the other.

And I'm still seeing two eagles from two distinct sources.

I'm seeing two dies.

Makes them no less a Godet. But one certainly earlier than the other. I'd take the damaged piece anytime...



The PlM with the lower dip in the M matches their wartime catalog.

[Zepenthusiast]

Great and conclusive close up of the photo of Wulff, Steve, with thanks due to the owner for allowing us to see it. Kudos to the photographer of old, too--splendid resolution.

So the two are not of the same die. Not in and of itself surprising, as one is hollow and the other not, as you say. However, historically the burden is now to match the hollow version with one of same, known to be wartime, if we are to accept a possible "new" variant, as opposed to a postwar Godet, etc. Note that from a detached "physical" perspective, this is exactly the same quandry as in regard to my cross, discussed in another thread, which in most respects matches known Wagner dies re the cross body, yet has eagles likewise close, but not quite matching the classic versions. In contrast of course, this hollow cross is a maker-marked specimen with significant association to a known PlM recipient by way of a well-regarded dealer and authority, none of which mine is graced with. Meaning no disrespect whatsoever to either you or the owner, Steve, as you both report what you believe to be the accurate story, it will yet be helpful if Detlev might comment on his return and remove one "layer" of conveyed information, assuming he heard first-hand from the family and not from the first owner. I cannot tell either from what Detlev wrote about the groups, or from what has yet been posted, if Detlev received the history himself from the family, or if he received it from the first owner (that is, did he sell the group originally after his own acquisition, or on behalf of the first post-Wulff-family owner.) Again, there is actually much at stake in making a determination of some kind, so scientific caution in merited. Perhaps you know the order of information conveyance, though.

[Zepenthusiast]

The dip on the M in the photo, incidentally, strongly argues for the solid cross.

[Brian S]

...don't want to accidentally mislead, here's the bottom of that catalog page.

[Brian S]

..and I'm seeing the one with the dip in the M in the photo, you?

So my question is what about the one on the left?

[Brian S]

What is also still worthy of note is that recipients did acquire privately, wear and own more than one award.

Steve

..and why not? I'm just a little peeved my Opa didn't buy six or seven and choose instead to wear several lapel pieces with the ribbon only. What was he thinking?

[regular122]

Brian,

Excellent detective work on the catalog. What is the date on the wartime catalog?

Jim,

The first owner also purchased from Detlev who acquired a cross from the family.

Some of my own thoughts with what we have so far:

- Both crosses are marked J.G.u. S. 938. These are wartime content designations. Cannot be ignored in the discussion.

- The dropped M cross is consistent with wartime Godets and as Brian has now shown, is tied to a wartime catalog.

- The hollow cross is a different die. Not surprising. Detlev states that hollow '938' Godets are extremely rare. Wartime content mark, hollow and family says it was purchased together with the other in 1918.

That is where we are at on evidence, claims and deductions. I am thinking the owner and Detlev are correct on these being wartime crosses. Let the discussion continue. We may turn up more surprises.

As to the date of the photo, I tend to think prior to 1934 and likley in the early 1920s? I cannot find the date of Wulff's death. He is not wearing the same bar in the photo that was sold at auction but one similar. The Anton medal is interesting. It changes places bit from th epic below.

As to the cross on the left in answer to your question Brian, I think we have a very rare hollow wartime content marked Godet. When it was acquired? Well see the above points in my opening paragraph on what we know so far. Steve

Thanks to Detlev and the owner for use of the pics.