Verbandsabzeichen-Arm Shields of the Bundeswehr

[Gordon Craig]

acmer,

We will keep working on this one for the time being. Eventually we can move on to the Bundesluftwaffe and the Bundesmarine arm shields. Another good thread we could start would be on rank insignia from the inception of the BW until the present time. That will need a lot of work an cooporation from all who vists/make posts to the forum. Thanks for your input to this thread.

Regards,

Gordon

[Furor Teutonicu]

acmer,

Bundesluftwaffe

No such thing.

All troops are Bundeswehr. But only the army is really called that in general. The Luftwaffe, are not normally, even in official communications, refered to as Bundeswehr. And Bundesluftwaffe just does not exist.

"Heer" for the army is also pretty rare. In fact outside of painted on helicopters, I can not ever remember hearing it called that.

[Gordon Craig]

You may indeed be correct but there is a need for collectors to differentiate between different branches of the Bundeswehr. I can not simply refer to the "Luftwaffe", and I know for certain that the West German air force used that designation on side of their aircraft, as that word is commonly used among English speaking collectors to refer to the Third Reich German air force. In German language collectors books in my library the term "Heer" is commonly used when refering to the ground forces of the Bundeswehr. So, unfortunately, we need to use terms that you may feel uncomfortable with so that there is no misunderstanding what we are trying to say. Very soon we intend to produce a thread with German and English terms that can be used on the forum by everyone. The acceptable German terms will be reached by concesus among those who make posts to the forum and not decided on by the moderators.

Regards,

Gordon

No such thing.

All troops are Bundeswehr. But only the army is really called that in general. The Luftwaffe, are not normally, even in official communications, refered to as Bundeswehr. And Bundesluftwaffe just does not exist.

"Heer" for the army is also pretty rare. In fact outside of painted on helicopters, I can not ever remember hearing it called that.

[Furor Teutonicu]

we need to use terms that you may feel uncomfortable with so that there is no misunderstanding what we are trying to say.

Gordon

There is no "Uncomfortable" about it. (Bundesluftwaffe)

It just does not exist.

Bundeswehr Luftwaffe is the closest. But you would be looked at askance, if not worse, if you called it that here.

It is Luftwaffe.

"Heer" forget it totaly. It is just not used at ALL. Even our helicopters have dropped it for 90% of the time.

[acmer]

I agree that the community is used on some terms that might not be very accurate. However, most here probably are not in Germany and sometimes you learn words from older material where terms might be different.

I'd still like to know what are the proper terms (a short post here perhaps, just to close the issue). I know them as Heer, Luftwaffe and (Bundes)marine. Probably because my documents offer me those words.

I personally don't care what they are called, as long as I know what the heck you are talking about

[Guardian 5]

There is no "Uncomfortable" about it. (Bundesluftwaffe)

It just does not exist.

Bundeswehr Luftwaffe is the closest. But you would be looked at askance, if not worse, if you called it that here.

It is Luftwaffe.

"Heer" forget it totaly. It is just not used at ALL. Even our helicopters have dropped it for 90% of the time.

Furor Teutonicus - Welcome to the BRD Forum.

We greatly value the first hand knowledge that citizens of the BRD bring to our hobby.

I think we are all in agreement that Die Bundeswehr is composed of Das Heer, Die Luftwaffe, und Die Marine.

We are also in agreement that these terms have fallen into disuse within the BRD.

My colleague Gordon has a very valid point however. We are but one site on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum. The great majority of our members originally joined the forum to study the Third Reich. When we say Luftwaffe, most people on this forum think of Herman Goering and the Me-109.

To avoid confusion, Gordon has proposed using the term Bundesluftwaffe until our forum members can agree on an acceptable alternative.

In the meantime, this thread is about Verbandabzeichen. Can you identify any of the patches in post #37? I think the one in the upper left may be the Artillery School in Ludwigshafen(?). The one in the lower right may belong to the Bundeswehr detachment at Fort Bliss, Texas, USA; I'm not sure.

Again, welcome to the forum. We look forward to learning more of your first hand knowledge.

With kind regards,

T.J.

[Guardian 5]

Examples of the former 1st Mountain Division Patch. The top one is "official" issue, the bottom two are commercially manufactured. Note the differences within the stamen (middle part) of the eidelweiss.

[Gordon Craig]

Here are some of the newer patches that Gordon mentioned earlier.

TJ,

Interesting patches you have pictured. I think these are what is called "Internen Verbandsabzeichen" and started to come into use in 1980. In a lot of cases these arm badges appear to be identical to the breast hangers that were worn from the right breast pocket. There was a book produced several years ago on the breast hangers and the author is supposed to be planning an update. I used to have the name of the book and the author but I can not find it now. Is anyone on the forum familiar with the book I am refering to? If so, please post the name of the book and the author. I would like to buy a copy. It will probably help us identify some, if not all, of the badges TJ has posted.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

A Verbandabzeichen from "des Materialamtes der Heeres, später Logistkzentrum des Heeres, Bad-Neunahr-Ahrweiler". Ref. Von der Affenjacke zum Tropentarnanzug by Walter Kunstwadl.

[Furor Teutonicu]

Here are some of the newer patches that Gordon mentioned earlier.

Interesting array.

All "unofficial". Most training courses that last longer than a few weeks normally have such things made for the course duration, and are given "semi official reccognition. The German army is not a stuffy as you may think, or expect.

as to the details;

Top right is from the missile trining school in either Arizona or Nevada, hence the "desert scene" and I have seen a few similar. The missile on that patch appears to be one of the early generations of "Panzerabwehr" missiles, the name of which, for the life of me I can not presently remember. The lion is from the 10th Panzer division. (still active) and is also seen in black. VERY interesting in this, is the "Wulf rune (Eihwaz). This is banned in Germany as one of the "nazi symbols". This would indicate the patch is older than the ban, which was in 1982.

Patch bottom right is the 51st artillery Regiment "Lützow". (no longer active as far as I can find). This patch is meant for the "olive greens", OR the cammy uniform. Although when it is as old as I suspect, then it was before the Bundeswehr got cammys. On dress uniform, the background would be white, the shield red and the lettering/cannons in either signal yellow or gold.

Bottom left is a similar story to the "unofficial course patches". A semi official patch, OR pre 70s. It appears to be an anti aircraft electronics warfare/radar unit. (Similar symbolism to todays units).

Top left is/was the central Artillery school.

[speedytop]

Hi,

sorry, but I have some problems with the comments from Furor Teutonicu

It is correct, that the official names are Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine, but is for Germans not exceptional, to use Bundesluftwaffe and Bundesmarine.

Two examples:

See the part Luftwaffe:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milit%C3%A4rgeschichte

See "Geschichte", the last paragraph:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fenbrode

And:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesmarine

Therefore I think, for foreigners and a differentiation it is possible and helpful, to speak from Heer, Bundesluftwaffe und Bundesmarine.

Bundesheer is not possible, that is for the (complete) Austrian Army and for older German Armies:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesheer


Uwe

[speedytop]

Hi,

"Patch bottom right is the 51st artillery Regiment "Lützow"."



It is the internal unit badge from the

Panzerartillerielehrbataillon 51:

http://www.artilleristen-vom-klotz.d...D_2552177.html


"Top right ... The missile on that patch appears to be one of the early generations of "Panzerabwehr" missiles"

I think, that this is a "Drohne", an unmanned military vehicle for reconnaissance missions, (CL-89), see picture 3:

http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_drohne_cl89-a.htm

It is the internal unit badge from the Drohnenlehrbatterei 300:

http://www.drohnenlehrbatterie300.de/


Top left is the internal unit badge from the Artillerieschule in Idar-Oberstein:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillerieschule


Uwe

[speedytop]

And the last badge from Post 37 is the internal unit badge from the Panzerflugabwehrkanonenbataillon 12:

http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...le/pzflakbtl12

Uwe

[acmer]

Does anyone know any more verbandsabzeichen related to Fernspäher / Heeresaufklärer? The relations I have found:

Heeresamt, which includes Ausbildungszentrum Spezielle Operationen

FSK 100 (disbanded)


FS(L)K 200, which is part of DSO


FSK 300 (disbanded)


Active unit badges
Abzeichen aktiver Verbände

Do all aufklärer today have the black beret and the Heeresaufklärer badge in it? Fernspäher had the maroon beret and their own badge, but they were merged into PzAufkl to form a Heeresaufklärungstruppe.

If one goes to Fernspählehrkompanie, where will he go next?

I'm trying to figure out the line of arm shields a "Fernspäher" might have during his career.

[Furor Teutonicu]

Hi,

sorry, but I have some problems with the comments from Furor Teutonicu

It is correct, that the official names are Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine, but is for Germans not exceptional, to use Bundesluftwaffe and Bundesmarine.

I have never heard it refered to as "Bundesluftwaffe" in my life. Unlike the Bundesmarine, which is never known as anything else. And I HAVE heard "Bundesheer".


Please give examples of the use of "Bundesluftwaffe" BY Germans.