Dr. Mengele Passport Found

[alexanderautogr]

The "Himmler school book" thread remains visible on this website:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+school&page=2

Contrary to what Mr. Gottlieb said earlier in this thread, I did not confirm it as authentic - I claimed it remained troubling and needed further study. He responded that it would take a "month" or a "year" to determine if it was authentic. I would like to know where that school book is now.

I assume his "team of experts" is still at work on it today, two years later.

[stdrbs14]

So, let me get this straight, Craig Gottlieb comes to the forum, stating with absolute conviction and firm authority of how above question his latest piece is.

First of all, you have to love the tone of authority this statement was:



looked at by OTHER experts..Craig the "expert" looked at it, and then let other experts look at it.



Hey, collectors, whether you like it or not, he knows his stuff! Oh, and he knows its real! No scientific analysis needed (or wanted)! He "knows its real!"



He is a competent researcher, as evidenced by his claim to be a competent researcher.



He spent THREE MONTHS researching this piece! In the future, when he says he has spent months researching something, remember this!




HAHAHA!! Craig just has a sense about these things. He can't quite put his finger on how, he was just blessed with this gift. He "just knows."



Then, when real acknowledged experts call it bogus, and list example after example of why they believe it is a fake, Craig suddenly backtracks:



You will reveal your findings when you are done? I thought you "just knew" it was real? I thought you spent 3 months researching this?



I love how this sentence leads off with, "trust me". (yeah, I trust you!)

If it turns out to be a forgery????? are you kidding me? how many posts did you lead with telling us it couldn't be a forgery?? Now your firm authoritative conviction that it was real has turned into "hoping it is not" a forgery??? Where did your conviction suddenly go? What happened to "just knowing" it was real?



Oh, after you claimed it was real and it was debunked, you try to salvage your pride and vanity by claiming to now conduct your own research! I thought you said you spent 3 months researching it, and you knew it was real!!



This was actually hilarious to read.

I am embarrassed for him. It is amazing to me that he is allowed to continuously come here and do this again and again.

[TxGauleiter]

May I suggest that this thread be removed from the Living History Forum of WAF to the Fake Documents Gallery of WAF, where it clearly belongs?

[Rick C]

not to belabor the point but, again, does anyone see a pattern with regard to Craig?

[beufighter]

having had to use this forumla the other day it reminds me of craig= pythagoras theorem where A² + B² = C² a is item he buys, b is all the publicity and c is the laughing stock craig makes out of himself and our hobby

Siegfried i read it on one of these pdf files all about craigs militaria life i had a good laugh ill send you a pm with a link in a while

and when you consider all the other threads closed or deleted or members booted when they try to stand up to dealers............... and heres a point can a mod tell me why kai winkler is still a member here after all the scams hes pulled

[Chris Boonzaier]

not to belabor the point but, again, does anyone see a pattern with regard to Craig?

Hi,

personally I think the issue of the passport becomes secondary. If Craig had preened and showed it as his great new catch, fine. Someone finds something good, they have bragging rights.... and if they get burned... its happened to all of us at some stage, there is no shame attached...

Where this spins out of control is the arrogance shown, ... him and his troop of experts... not the unwashed forum scumbags.... obviously the elite dont mix online...

then the contempt and disdain he shows to each and every member.... all are too stupid, too mean, too unknowing to be involved in vetting an item.

So he will ignore the scum and go refer with his elite non forum clique...


That's pretty freaking insulting....

When someone gets burned... especially after being arrogant... the best thing is to cut your losses, admit you were burned, and most people will give you a sympathetic pat on the shoulder.... this thread is an example of how NOT to do it.

I personally do not accuse Craig of dishonesty in the respect that he probably actually DOES believe this, the Himmler School book, Birdshead dagger are good.... but he tries to gain credibility for them by adding a dollop of BS, which he expects peple to believe.

I do the same thing when i try and convince my 5 year old to do or not do things... but it is insulting to do it to adults.

You/Me/We are too dumb for Craig.... accept it, live with it... ;-)

[bigschuss]

Holy cow. I just came across this thread for the first time and read it end to end. I kind of just came away shaking my head in disbelief...you just can't even make this stuff up. But there it is. This whole fiasco plays itself out like bad TV....like Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo. So revoltingly bad, it's hilarious, and sad, at the same time.

The best thing about this thread was the guy who asked if Chum-lee had given his opinion yet about 10 pages back. Hilarious! And now 10 pages later, so spot on!

[TxGauleiter]

I am dismayed. Craig will not give up the name of the seller, whom I am convinced has bilked dozens of people for many thousands of dollars. I have on my desk 25 amateurish forgeries from a man who is undoubtedly the same seller, an Argentine national who attended the Max Show...where the passport was sold to Craig by...an Argentine national. In the historic autograph world, my origin, that would raise instant alarm...

..Boy, am I pissed.

Don't get too upset, Craig uses this tactic regularly. Go back and reread the threads of controversy found here on WAF.

The Birdshead Dagger was "restored", but he would not name the alleged restorer. The picture frame incident was necessitated by an autographed AH photo that has still (years later) never come to light. Some vet recorded his story of a rare piece, but, you guessed it, he "dies" and can't be contacted. Any story involving a super rare piece and Craig always reaches some curious dead-end. This is all calculated and a big part of his modus operandi. The thread will get locked down, or the story debunked or ignored by Craig until it is irrelevant. Then, if you ever try to ask about it later, there is a tone of "can't you give it a rest? I don't have to talk about it anymore. I have said my piece. I don't have to answer to you." Remember and look for curious dead-ends.

I am not attacking Craigs character, I don't know him personally. However, as a regular of WAF I can't help but notice how many different threads there are that involve some sort of controversy and Craig Gottlieb's "expertise". I don't think it is productive to turn threads into attacks. But it is irresponsible to ignore obvious trends involving the same people.

If the membership here chooses to fall for it, I have no control. I just know that I don't fall for it.

[alexanderautogr]

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...-gottlieb.html

[Hoss]

Bill
You asked early for Mr Gottlieb to send you the documents is the press release mistaken:?
>Military paper historian and auctioneer Bill Panagopulos said that if the passport is real, it could have a value of up to $250,000. Three years ago, Panagopulos sold Mengele’s journals for nearly $400,000 through his Alexander Historical Auctions in Chesapeake City, Md. Panagopulos briefly examined the Mengele passport a few months ago and said it could have great interest to collectors.

“I saw it and I said, ‘Wow, that is a great, great item,” Panagopulos said. “I’m a document expert and paper is my specialty. If it’s faked, it’s a very good fake. Still, historically, it’s a great piece.”<

Regards

Wasn't this document already found a few years ago by an Argentine student during a search on the National Archives?

Without reading the whole thread again this question is interesting, I thought.

Eric

[Sepp45]

Without reading the whole thread again this question is interesting, I thought.

Eric

Eric, I confused with the Eichmann document, found within the archives by a student.

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Exhib...708529282.html

[alexanderautogr]

Bill
You asked early for Mr Gottlieb to send you the documents is the press release mistaken:?
>Military paper historian and auctioneer Bill Panagopulos said that if the passport is real, it could have a value of up to $250,000. Three years ago, Panagopulos sold Mengele’s journals for nearly $400,000 through his Alexander Historical Auctions in Chesapeake City, Md. Panagopulos briefly examined the Mengele passport a few months ago and said it could have great interest to collectors.

“I saw it and I said, ‘Wow, that is a great, great item,” Panagopulos said. “I’m a document expert and paper is my specialty. If it’s faked, it’s a very good fake. Still, historically, it’s a great piece.”<

Regards



Without reading the whole thread again this question is interesting, I thought.

Eric

Hoss,

The newspaper article is a little confusing.

At the MAX Show last October, Craig showed me the "passport" for about thirty seconds total. As I recall, I told him it was a great object, and I'd love to have it for our auction. That was the first and last time I saw the document first hand. Of course, my comment to Craig was by no means a validation of the piece, nor were the comments made to the newspaper which were based on that brief viewing. My "Still historically it's a great piece" comment was taken out of context - it was made under the assumption that the piece was in all respects authentic.

If, as I believe, the document is a new-born forgery, it's worth $100 as a curiosity - much like the Donitz document on my wall which a "third party authenticator" verified as bearing the signature of...Chester Nimitz.

[damasco]

I have read this whole thread.. What, another mess....

[paddywhack]

iv read this thread with GREAT interest, cant comment on the passport but i suspect what will happen is that this thread will go on for another few pages and after a while interest will wane and we will probably not hear of it again unless in reference to a new controversially!!!

[scott3000]

Haha

I wonder if Vera is going to lose her job over her bosses latest fiasco?

Chet