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**alexanderautogr** · 02-02-2014, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Hoss View Post

For us general history lovers with a passing interest on these artifacts I wonder if the people using time were even aware the surname was 'Gregor' not Helmut whatever, an Italian friend asked me to point this out after reading about it something else the press release screwed up.
He's also a bit shocked an individual with no family link could contact Italian authorities and obtain information even on a cancelled passport, is this normal?

Eric

Actually, Mengele's alias was "Helmut Gregor" and the passport was signed with the names reversed. From sales of period Italian passports I viewed, many were signed with the last name, first.

I'm sure the Italian government would cooperate in providing information as long as no personal details are divulged.

Bill

**alexanderautogr** · 02-02-2014, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by wags View Post

Bill,
Before a donation worth more than $5,000 is accepted for tax write off by the IRS, they will need a IRS accepted expert appraisal and CoA. (From my experience a number of years ago).
Did Craig suggest you help him out in that matter if indeed he was going to donate a $250,000 Mengele Grouping to the Holocaust Museum ?

>>Through his Solana Beach auction company historyhunter.com, Gottlieb trades internationally in military artifacts — particularly German items from World War II — but he said the Mengele passport is not for sale. The 42-year-old North County resident has Jewish heritage and said he would prefer to donate the document to an institution like the Museum of Tolerance or the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, if he can cover his expenses. <<

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/...gele-passport/
-wagner-

Thanks for your inquiry. When I first saw the passport, Craig did not ask me for a "guesstimate" as to its value, nor did I volunteer one. Certainly the number I quoted to the press could not be considered a valid appraisal for tax purposes - such appraisals generally require a statement of the appraiser's experience, and prices obtained for similar objects, all set forth in writing.

Actually, up until his declaration that he intended to donate the piece, I fully believed he intended to offer it for sale.

**alexanderautogr** · 02-02-2014, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Wagriff View Post

Has anyone noticed that the photo used in Mengele's passport looks like a much older man than he should have been in 1948? The 1st photo here is from the Auschwitz Album which was taken just a very few years before the passport photo was taken and shows a radically different image. He arrived in May 23rd of 1943 to Auschwitz and fled on January 17, 1945, so the above image can be narrowed to that short time line. The passport is said to be issued in Genoa,Italy in 1949. For someone so vain as Mengele, his physical appearance has changed dramatically in the space of a few short years. Mengele was born March 16, 1911, which would make him 37 years old in 1948, but the man in the passport photo appears to be considerably older than 37. In fact, the photo more closely resembles the image in his 1956 Argentine Identification document(the 3rd photo) It may well be the same actual photo as the passport photo.

I believe that the two photos on the right in your illustration are one in the same - only that the center photo is "second generation" or a scanned and photoshopped version of the photo on the right, otherwise both are identical. I have also claimed that the photo at right has been credited to an Argentine police officer in ca. 1953, and if so, the center photo is from the same year.

**alexanderautogr** · 02-02-2014, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by ethreecee View Post

Do any of you remember Mark Hoffman of Salt Lake City? He also discover many priceless documents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann

Hoffman, the "Morman forger", was brilliant and fooled some of my best dealer friends and customers. The difference is that he was the forger himself (and blew up some of those who were tracking him!), but I wouldn't suggest for a moment that Craig forged this document. He may be guilty of foolish hubris but not forgery.

Hoffman's story is a great read. He's still in jail, and his autograph is worth some money itself!

**Wagriff** · 02-02-2014, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by alexanderautogr View Post

I believe that the two photos on the right in your illustration are one in the same - only that the center photo is "second generation" or a scanned and photoshopped version of the photo on the right, otherwise both are identical. I have also claimed that the photo at right has been credited to an Argentine police officer in ca. 1953, and if so, the center photo is from the same year.

If that is indeed the case-that the Argentine ID photo is one and the same with the Passport photo-as it seems to very much be-wouldn't this also mean then that the Passport from 1948 was put together from a much later photo taken by an Argentine photographer and could therefore not be credible? It bears "Official stamps" and the like, but it could not possibly have been used at the time it was supposed to have been used, as the photograph affixed to it had not been taken yet and would not for a half a decade later?

**alexanderautogr** · 02-02-2014, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Wagriff View Post

If that is indeed the case-that the Argentine ID photo is one and the same with the Passport photo-as it seems to very much be-wouldn't this also mean then that the Passport from 1948 was put together from a much later photo taken by an Argentine photographer and could therefore not be credible? It bears "Official stamps" and the like, but it could not possibly have been used at the time it was supposed to have been used, as the photograph affixed to it had not been taken yet and would not for a half a decade later?

A little further down this thread, you'll see my hypothesis. You are correct, unless a copy of Mengele's passport photo was kept by him and then used by the Argentine police six years later...which I very much doubted.

**Wagriff** · 02-02-2014, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by alexanderautogr View Post

A little further down this thread, you'll see my hypothesis. You are correct, unless a copy of Mengele's passport photo was kept by him and then used by the Argentine police six years later...which I very much doubted.

Very true. I do not know the specifics, but I do not believe at all that a Passport photo would ever be allowed to be years old.

**Hoss** · 02-03-2014, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by alexanderautogr View Post

Actually, Mengele's alias was "Helmut Gregor" and the passport was signed with the names reversed. From sales of period Italian passports I viewed, many were signed with the last name, first.

I'm sure the Italian government would cooperate in providing information as long as no personal details are divulged.

Bill

Yea we know
Just trying to make it clear you explained it better..last name Gregor.

Thanks
Eric

**Tora_Tora_Tora!** · 02-03-2014, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Hoss View Post

For us general history lovers with a passing interest on these artifacts I wonder if the people using time were even aware the surname was 'Gregor' not Helmut whatever, an Italian friend asked me to point this out after reading about it something else the press release screwed up.
He's also a bit shocked an individual with no family link could contact Italian authorities and obtain information even on a cancelled passport, is this normal?

Eric

I asked to Mr Gottlieb a scan of the Mayor's signature down the photo but no reply received......

**Thorsten B.** · 02-03-2014, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by alexanderautogr View Post

Hoffman, the "Morman forger", was brilliant and fooled some of my best dealer friends and customers. The difference is that he was the forger himself (and blew up some of those who were tracking him!), but I wouldn't suggest for a moment that Craig forged this document. He may be guilty of foolish hubris but not forgery.

Hoffman's story is a great read. He's still in jail, and his autograph is worth some money itself!

Well, sounds like a cousin of Konrad Kujau.

**alexanderautogr** · 02-03-2014, 08:49 AM

Stay tuned to this channel

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb View Post

For the record, and not mentioned in the newspaper, but certainly mentioned by me, the passport may be an example of falsified identity papers. We do know that Mengele relied upon such documents throughout his life. And of course ... of course ... an artifact of this importance requires forensic analysis, which is why I have been in contact with other experts in other disciplines ... paper, photograph, stamps, the italian archive department of the embassy. I can report that there is no sign of altered entries (as in erasures or washed ink), and the photograph is original. Rest assured before this document leaves my possession all the Ts will literally be crossed, and all the lower case Js dotted! Stay tuned for updates as I have them.

The above was Post 54 - now we are many days and hundreds of posts into this (one-sided) debate and not a peep from the owner of the passport. And his silence flies in the face of strident demands of his peers and colleagues in the trade for transparency.

What have we (not) seen?

- No commentary on this website nor indeed any other website amending his claim that he owns "Mengele's passport", or even an acknowledgement of the controversy;

- No images of the "passport" or related documents made available for peer review;

- No declaration as to what authentication work was done before the documents were exposed to the press and public, nor whom may be examining them now;

- No disclosure of the seller's name, even privately, to determine his bona fides;

- No information disclosed as to the identity of "jackdawson1970" who favorably edited the Wikipedia pages "Craig Gottlieb" and "Josef Menegele" to Craig's advantage, and also inserted negative commentary in the "Alexander Autographs" Wikipedia page (particularly galling to this writer);

- No preemptive action apparently taken to protect consumers from the sale of additional forgeries, should the passport and/or supporting documents prove modern forgeries.

In the autograph trade, contrary evidence to the degree brought forth here would have seen the documents "pulled" and a search begun for the forger, be he the original seller or someone further down the line. The owner, if a dealer, would of course cooperate fully with his peers - and law enforcement - to investigate the piece and its immediate history. IMO we are almost at the point where the present owner is obstructing justice, so to speak.

This is not professional behavior as I know it.

BTW - There appears to be no "italian archive department" in any Italian embassy, let alone Argentina or the U.S. The only place I imagine passport records for this document would have been held would have been at the issuing place - Genoa, or perhaps Rome. And of course, there is no "italian embassy" on Italian soil.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-03-2014, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by alexanderautogr View Post

- No information disclosed as to the identity of "jackdawson1970" who favorably edited the Wikipedia pages "Craig Gottlieb" and "Josef Menegele" to Craig's advantage, and also inserted negative commentary in the "Alexander Autographs" Wikipedia page (particularly galling to this writer); ..

It is pretty clear that "jackdawson1970" is very close to CG and it is also possible that it is he himself. At any rate, the obvious refusal to take out the picture and the text underneath it on the "Craig Gottlieb" wikipedia site is IMHO very, very bad.

Even measured against CG own admissions, this description "Gottlieb holds the Italian Passport used by Josef Mengele to flee to Argentina in 1949." is a blatant misrepresentation of the truth and to let it stand signals to me that he has no inclination at all to inform the wikipedia users about the truth as he knows it already.

Why is that?

**Rick C** · 02-03-2014, 09:32 AM

Call me silly but I’ve read a few of the threads discussing Craig’s offerings (some even that TxGauleiter pointed to) and I’ve come away shaking my head having reached a conclusion about this gentleman to the point where I’ve removed any bookmarks I once had to his sites and requested (numerous times) to be removed from his email notifications. Why? Because I wouldn’t trust the guy as far as I could spit.

Now, I don’t know if I can say that without getting bounced out of here (we’ll see, I guess) by his friends or allies of this man but if I might quote Ian Fleming’s Goldfinger “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action.”

**11C** · 02-03-2014, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Rick C View Post

Call me silly but I’ve read a few of the threads discussing Craig’s offerings (some even that TxGauleiter pointed to) and I’ve come away shaking my head having reached a conclusion about this gentleman to the point where I’ve removed any bookmarks I once had to his sites and requested (numerous times) to be removed from his email notifications. Why? Because I wouldn’t trust the guy as far as I could spit.

Now, I don’t know if I can say that without getting bounced out of here (we’ll see, I guess) by his friends or allies of this man but if I might quote Ian Fleming’s Goldfinger “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action.”

I already been bounced out once for accusing the moderators of conspiracy with the "big boy dealers"...........It is understood that CG owns part of this site; how much is the question. This site has been accused of being a dealer whore for too long. I would not be surprised if Craig has multiple I'ds in here and may in fact be a modrator, which would explan the disappearance of many "negative" threads in here. This latest sham is probably just the tip of an iceberg and we are all (most of us) holding Titanic tickets.

**Hoss** · 02-03-2014, 10:47 AM

Well
I know who and where Dawson is now.

Eric

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