Dr. Mengele Passport Found

[Craig Gottlieb]

That's really interesting. The one I saw had a "J" for Juden on it ... obviously an attempt at humor. My Hitler DAP ID needs no defending, as it's a known piece and has been since the 1930s with an unbroken chain of custody going back to the director of the museum who housed the document during the period, to the veteran, to the collector who bought it, to me many decades later, to the collector who now owns it. I can't speak to who owned it between Hitler and the Third Reich era museum.

[alexanderautogr]

Final decision

Something very interesting just came up...

While editing the Wikipedia page for Josef Mengele, which concluded with a citation that Craig had discovered the ITALIAN passport issued in 1947 allowing Mengele to flee Germany/Italy for Argentina, I found the following image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...ngele_1956.jpg:



It is described thus on the Wikipedia photo page, linked to Mengele's biography:

"{{Information |Description ={{en|1=Josef Mengele (1911-1979), German SS officer. Photo taken by a police photographer in 1956 in Buenos Aires for Mengele's Argentine identification document}} {{de|1=Josef Mengele (1911-1979), deutscher SS-Offizier. Fot"

YOUR passport, Craig, purportedly issued in 1947, two years before Mengele fled Germany, I might add, looks like this:



You will please note that the numerical placard, identical in both images, is in the Wikipedia photo (1956) placed above Mengele's head. In the second image, your piece (1947), the placard is at his left side, suspended vertically in space. And, come to think of it, why is there a numerical placard in a passport photograph anyway? How do we have two identical images, with obviously the same placard, ten years apart? Was he that well preserved? And how did the placard mysteriously gravitate a few feet to his right? Could it be because the number wouldn't fit above his head on your bogus passport, and the forger was completely retarded in moving it to one side?

In my professional opinion, your passport is a complete piece of sh_t created by a pathetic forger a week ago and now is the time to do the right thing: expose the fraudster, prosecute him, and try in some way to rehabilitate your image. This is now becoming comical and embarrassing, for you and everyone else in the trade. The only self-authenticating thing about the passport is that it's not self-authenticating - you were duped because your expertise lies in daggers, swords, helmets, and self-promotion---and not documents and, presumably, careful advance research.

Now I am doubly mad. You may never speak to me again, but that's OK. Shred that dog before this gut takes someone else.

[Hoss]

Bill
You beat me to it found that image last night but didn't have the date.

Eric

JOSEPH MENGELE SIGHTINGS

1949
Argentina on the North King Flees from Europe via boat
1951
Paraquay
1952
Buenos Aires Introduced to Eichman
New York City Survivor Contact in July
Aberdeen Proving Grounds Survivor Contact in November
1953
Buenos Aires Worked in Lab under alias of Dr. Gregor
1954
Florida Survivor Contact
Paraguay --Met Alejandro von Ecstein
Olivos --Winter he moved to a house at 1875 Calle Sarmiento
1955
Argentina Applied for Passport in April
Argentina Given Good Conduct Pass on Sept. 1
Argentina Argentine Court Issues a 120 day passport
Nashville, TN Survivor Contact
Clarksville,TN Survivor Contact Fort Cambell
1956
Switzerland Mengele flys to Switzerland 2 hr. stopover in New York
1957
Santiago,Chile-Feb. Business Trip meets Walter Rauffe who was an SS Colonel who
developed the mobile gas vans that killed 97,000 people
Raven Rock/Camp David and Walter Reed Survivor Contact
Adirondack Mtns Survivor Contact
1958
Montevdeo, Uraquay July married Martha
Buenos Aires August returns to 970 Virrey Vertiz, Olivios Suburb bordered on the
back of Peron's former palatial home
Fadro Farm KGSA in Buenos Aires Arrested under alias Dr. Gregor for practicing without a license in a
back street abortion clinic where girl dies
Asuncion, Paraquay September stays at boarding house called Astra on 90 day visa
1959
Buenos, Aires Father dies in March, sells shares of Fadro Farm returns to Argentina
Argentina May flees to Alto Parana, known as Nueva Bavaria lodges with diehard
Paraquay Nazi Alban Krug in Hohenau, 40 miles north of Encarnacion. He also travels to Filadelfia, Rosario, San Bernardion & Villarrica
Canada Survivor Contact, used alias Father Joseph

1960
Brazil Decides capture inevitable, leaves for Sau Palo
Montreal , CA Survivor Contact
Detroit, MI Survivor Contact
Kansas City Survivor Contact
Canada Survivor Contact used alias Father Joseph
1961
Canada Survivor Contact used alias Father Joseph
Egypt Escaped Israeli Agents while preparing to go to Crete
1962
Brazil Serra Negro 93 miles north of Sau Paulo with Stammers' and buys a
farm called Santa Luzia
Returns to Paraquay
Viet Nam Survivor Contact on ship Hope
Kitchener in Ontario, CA Rabbi sites suspicious man using name Joseph Menke
Canada Survivor Contact used alias Father Joseph
Upper Parana July Paraquay receives extradition request and he moves and assumes
name of Dr. Fritz Fischer
1963
Walter Reed Survivor Contact
New Mexico Survivor Contact, Albuqerque
Milan, Italy Xmas Eve meets son in Italy, using Alias Dr. Gregor Gregory
1964
Russia Survivor Contact
New York Survivor Contact
Detroit, MI Survivor Contact
1965
Monaca, PA Survivor Contact
Mt. Hood, Oregon Survivor Contact
Upper Penn., MI Survivor Contact
1966
Hohenau, Parauay Tirol Hotel, #12

1968
Maine Survivor Contact
Cleveland Survivor Contact
1969
Sao Paulo alias Peter Hochbichler
1970
Sao Paulo Mengele considers offer from Klaus Barbie to move to Bolivia, but declines
1971

obtains identity card which allows him to travel country without suspicion living under alias Wolfgang Gerhard
1972
CIA reports Mengele using the name Dr. Henrique Wollman, and he might be involved in drug dealing drug dealing

1975
5555 Alveranga Road in Sao Paulo living under alias Don Pedro
1978
Life Magazine claimed Mengele lived in private house on Haines Road 30 miles north of New York

1979
Mengele reported dead, February 17, 1979 Reported Drowned

Greencastle Indiana Mengele Family buys 400 acres of farmland in December
29-Aug-79 Assistant U.S. Attorney in Miami, Fla, Jerry Sanford receives word from FBI
that Mengele will be at the airport and flying in from Asuncion on board
Braniff Flight 974. One hour later call comes from Washington saying
Mengele had been tipped off.

[ethreecee]

website

Mr. Alexander,
Will you PM me your website?
ThankU

[Hoss]

This is also one of a number of sites that make stamps, anything one desires for reenactors:

http://www.intrenches.com/stamps.htm

Separately according to the text a passport cover showing embossing 1966.

Eric

[Killerbee]

Mr. Alexander has you in "check" Craig... if not in "checkmate" on this passport. Based on Mr. Alexander's preliminary observations, I doubt anyone would ever consider purchasing this passport as authentic (short of some miracle finding). There is no shame in saying you were wrong and premature in your boasting of such a prize. Just brush yourself off, and announce to the "world" you were wrong and move on. Also take down those statements on Wiki. And if you go back on that same news channel to make the announcement, you will earn respect, and you will get more free PR. If you don't, then...????

But one thing that I got out of this discussion is my earnest respect for Mr. Alexander. Trust is earned and he has gain mine. I look forward to seeing his offering in his business/auctions in the future.

Jim

[jacquesf]

I must agree, Mr Alexander's professionalism is impressive and imo that is the way to gain and grow a reputation. Not by shouting your own name from the roof tops every possible occasion.

CG represents the textbook definition for narcissism. "Narcissism is a term that originated with Narcissus in Greek mythology who fell in love with his own image reflected in a pool of water. Currently it is used to describe the pursuit of gratification from vanity, or egotistic admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, that derive from arrogant pride."

[Daniel.S]

t, I know my stuff with respect to documents, and given the provenance that comes with it, I know it's real.

The birdheads dagger comes to my mind now.

[alexanderautogr]

Something very interesting just came up...

While editing the Wikipedia page for Josef Mengele, which concluded with a citation that Craig had discovered the ITALIAN passport issued in 1947 allowing Mengele to flee Germany/Italy for Argentina, I found the following image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...ngele_1956.jpg:



It is described thus on the Wikipedia photo page, linked to Mengele's biography:

"{{Information |Description ={{en|1=Josef Mengele (1911-1979), German SS officer. Photo taken by a police photographer in 1956 in Buenos Aires for Mengele's Argentine identification document}} {{de|1=Josef Mengele (1911-1979), deutscher SS-Offizier. Fot"

YOUR passport, Craig, purportedly issued in 1947, two years before Mengele fled Germany, I might add, looks like this:

.

Just to clarify what I wrote last night (after hours on the road):

How could Mengele 's 1947 passport issued in Genoa have a photo in it which would be taken nine years later in Buenos Aires by a police photographer? And how did a numbered placard appear in two different positions in the photos?

[Jean-Loup]

More good and very convincing work Mr Alexander. So basicaly the wikipedia page sufficient to both create and debunk this passport that I now consider fake unless proven otherwise.

[piw]

Very simple research seems to have left this item dead in the water. All the evidence has been gained from information readily available in the public domain. Case closed.

[Seigfried]

More good and very convincing work Mr Alexander. So basicaly the wikipedia page sufficient to both create and debunk this passport that I now consider fake unless proven otherwise.

I agree - this is what I have been agitating for, somebody suitable equipped to examine it. I'm sure that the conclusion would have been reached sooner if he had seen it in his hands.

Not only has he deconstructed the whole ensemble, he has done so with means largely within our grasp should we choose to use them - the internet, common sense, a critical piercing eye and perseverance! It shows what an amateur put it together, and for someone who proclaims to know his documents and I quote

"but whether you like it or not, I know my stuff with respect to documents, and given the provenance that comes with it, I know it's real."

I am just staggered by the arrogance!

If I was a dealer and had been touting this around as original and defending it with such vehemence I would be acutely embarrassed to say the least.

[PBR]

My knowledge about the subject is very limited, being mainly a military paperwork guy.
My intention is not to flame this up, I'm just doing some speculations since I'm interested into paperworks so I wonder why:

a) An ethnic german would own an italian passport, unless he was a volksdeutsche born in the north-eastern part of Italy (place of birth should be mentioned on the passport and would be very easy to check this)
b) Mengele was issued an Italian Red Cross ID in order to leave Italy for South-America, so I get he was very likely considered a "Displaced Person" and very likely also a "Staatloos" as many others after the war. Why would a displaced person or a Staatloos need a Red Cross identity card if he already had his passport? And why a displaced person or a Staatloss would have an italian passport?
c) during my collecting life I've never ever seen a period passport with a "numbered" picture on it.

[Rick C]

Does 'anyone' else see any pattern here.

[alexanderautogr]

Let there be no mistake - I am neither happy nor proud about my work on the passport and the resulting effects it may have on a fellow dealer. No professional enjoys refuting the work of another.

Events like this are bad news for everyone involved, not just the embarrassed owner and forger. ALL dealers get bruised, the press will run away the next time there's a similarly good story, and potential new collectors, my bead-and-butter, switch to buying antique lunch boxes.

And I am reminded of the Biblical quote: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I have been publicly flogged for offering items some viewed as questionable (they were pulled from the sales), and it will happen again. And its not pleasant.

What should we take away from this? Do your due diligence. And if it's too good to be true...it's fake.