Dr. Mengele Passport Found

[ValhallaMilitaria]

I don't really care about who owns it or the circumstances it was acquired under. I do agree it belongs in a museum. Owning something that belonged to that beast and having it in my collection would give me the creeps! Every time I looked at it I would have visions of young children being tortured.
Jim

And this is how I feel about any items worn in the camps, to each their own and all that but its not something I want in my home with me.

[Thorsten B.]

And this is how I feel about any items worn in the camps, to each their own and all that but its not something I want in my home with me.

They simply represent both sides of one and the same medal so to speak.

You cannot have one without the other.

[alexanderautogr]

A very interesting observation out of first hand!

So in comparison to these actual market prices a very rare SS cultural item like the Allach figure of the falcon sold by HH for over 50K (including fees) are still underestimated and comparatively cheap.

That's a possibility, but the Mengele journals, Lincoln letters, and Hitler anti-Semitic diatribe add to the historic record and document crucial historic events, good and bad. Therein lies the appeal to collectors - and the resulting high prices.

A rare artifact, gift, uniform, etc. is just that - a silent relic that doesn't "speak". Also bear in mind that collectors of TR "hard goods" are a very small group compared to those who buy autograph material.

But there are plenty of genuine, top end relics that have brought very substantial prices, especially on the private market and which we never hear about.

There's no doubt that for all WWII material, the market is firm and growing.

[crfraser]

There's no doubt that for all WWII material, the market is firm and growing.

Forgive the off topic - You would know better than me but I certainly don't see that reflected in recent autograph prices given the force of supply and demand.

Colin

[alexanderautogr]

Forgive the off topic - You would know better than me but I certainly don't see that reflected in recent autograph prices given the force of supply and demand.

Colin

I'll qualify that - prices for better material are strong, but as is the case with almost all collectibles, lesser material is fairly flat. Economy is improving, so a rising tide lifts all boats.

[J. Wraith]

. Economy is improving

In Haiti

[BrianK]

So it was not a "self-authenticating artefact" after all. Glad to hear that, would put a lot of experts out of business ....

So, just to avoid confusion (for me), this passport could be:

1. a real passport issues by Italy for Mengele and from Mengele
2. a forged passport, but forged for Mengele and used by Mengele
3. a complete fake, never used by Mengele

Case 1 would be extremely interesting, case 2 would be interesting, and case 3 would be a dud. Right?

Dietrich

Very true, and I know which number I'm leaning towards.

[Seigfried]

I open all investigations of the passport. It's already been looked at by other experts

Who exactly are all these other 'experts'? Hawking it around various dealer cronies does not equate to independent examination.

It should be sent to a reputable company (not another dealer) such as a museum with no vested interest and a proven track record in period documentation. Have you tried the FBI or Smithsonian for example? If it is reputedly worth such a vast amount then I'm sure that a little outlay in this direction would prove worthwhile...unless it is a fake. A lot of money rests on it's authenticity which is why independent authentication is absolutely paramount.

Until it has undergone independent authentication then it cannot be deemed genuine I'm afraid.

[alexanderautogr]

Who exactly are all these other 'experts'? Hawking it around various dealer cronies does not equate to independent examination.

It should be sent to a reputable company (not another dealer) such as a museum with no vested interest and a proven track record in period documentation. Have you tried the FBI or Smithsonian for example? If it is reputedly worth such a vast amount then I'm sure that a little outlay in this direction would prove worthwhile...unless it is a fake. A lot of money rests on it's authenticity which is why independent authentication is absolutely paramount.

Until it has undergone independent authentication then it cannot be deemed genuine I'm afraid.

To imply that I am a "dealer crony" of Mr. Gottlieb's implies that I have some type of professional and/or financial relationship with him. On the contrary: we are competitors.

The FBI and museums do not do outside work on commission. The only competent authenticators are credentialed forensic document examiners and reputable dealers and companies, including auction houses that have sold 40,000 documents over 25 years.

If Craig would be kind enough to send me scans of all the documents, I'd be pleased to offer a more informed opinion.

[Obersalzberg]

The fact is so many fakes will render this passport as just another questionable item that is the most recent to surface.

If its genuine, so what? Who wants a post war civilian passport ....Mengele's photo is the only unique aspect of this item.

[Seigfried]

To imply that I am a "dealer crony" of Mr. Gottlieb's implies that I have some type of professional and/or financial relationship with him. On the contrary: we are competitors.

The FBI and museums do not do outside work on commission. The only competent authenticators are credentialed forensic document examiners and reputable dealers and companies, including auction houses that have sold 40,000 documents over 25 years.

If Craig would be kind enough to send me scans of all the documents, I'd be pleased to offer a more informed opinion.

Fair enough - you have not seen the documents and you are not one of his cronies, but the question remains: who are these aforementioned 'experts'?

If auction houses are the experts then send it to them, I only used the FBI etc for an example, I have no idea what services they provide. In the UK museums will give independent opinions, usually for free.

[Jean-Loup]

If auction houses and private experts are as good at authentifying documents as they are at authentifying helmets, then I am affraid their opinion is not worth much.

[Seigfried]

If auction houses and private experts are as good at authentifying documents as they are at authentifying helmets, then I am affraid their opinion is not worth much.

Instead of slagging off auction houses et al, who do YOU think should examine it? This document is being touted around as if it's beyond question and if anyone questions the 'experts' then they must be a fool! Who are the 'experts' who've seen it? Answer: NO ONE of any repute.

Unless it is subjected to independent analysis it will always remain of dubious origin, believed by those who want to believe in it, and defended - regardless of authenticity - by those who spent a lot of money on it! I thought that a prime reason for this forum was research and proving originality beyond reasonable doubt!

[BrianK]

Let's stipulate it's real and worth $250K. Let the well-heeled person or museum acquire it. I'd be happy with a cut signature of Mengele for $1200.

[Jean-Loup]

"Instead of slagging off auction houses et al, who do YOU think should examine it?"

I thought my post was self explanatory (if not self authentifying). This item should be analysed by the government authority that issued it, as well as by some actual scientists/forensic experts.

Asking various dealers to authentify it is, to make an exagerated comparison for illustration purposes, like asking Manions to authentify it.Perhaps they will be correct... or perhaps not...
I am not saying that some of the dealers participating in this thread do not have great experience in the field, and a valid opinion; but for items like this, it is factual evidence that is required, not just opinion, experience, and gut feeling. Seeing it being touched with ungloved fingers in the press photo is not a good start.