Debunking the M1 Garand "Ping" Myth

[leibermuster]

Remember in 'the Longest Day' when the Mauser cycling a round was mistaken for the US Airborne clicker? Many GIs swear it happened and many swear it did not. I suspect that most of these battle rumors have at least some basis in fact. I talked to a vet who told me that pinching and throwing an endblock made the ping sound and would be done more as a way of drawing fire, much like a helmet on a stick.

[pzrwest]

Did you also notice when they did a close up of the german guy reloading his k98 that he was wearing an Arbeits buckle? Also when he fired there was 2 shots so either he had a semi auto rifle or there were 2 guys that fired at Sal Minio

[force136]

I am just finding this thread now? Anyway interesting. The problem with the M-1 family of carbine and rifle was not necessarily the sound of a ping ( if that was a problem? ) but the ejection of casings and clips into the air. For example, mention of the FSSF on Difensa has been made. Concealed firing positions could be given away by this occurrance. The Germans, who were keen observers, did not have to attack or fire back at these positions, just provoke them. Their FOU people would take care of the rest with mortar or artillery. I also read somewhere that the use of these US weapons usually meant that the Germans knew from which area the fire was coming from because of how US soldiers were trained to fire from. The FSSF took steps to eradicate the predictable nature of the deployment of men when in the attack. I can't recall the details exactly, but that is the gist of it.

Ken

I guess this goes under living history? I was watching the History Channel (or maybe Discovery?) over the weekend and there was a show about the Top 10 infantry weapons of all time. As usual, they had that big bald guy giving his theories and opinions...I think he is the currator for the West Point museum?
Anyway, he mentioned that the one drawback to the M1 Garand was the loud "ping" it made when the en-bloc clip was ejected after the 8th round was fired. He said that it basicaly told the Germans "hey, I'm out of ammo" and he went on to describe that Germans learned to recognize this sound and would "charge" after they heard that sound.

What B.S., and from an "expert" like this.

Almost unbelievably he also went on to say that Americans would then have a 9th round handy, so that when the clip ejected and the germans charged, they would quickly hand load a 9th round and kill the German.

This ranks up there with the myth that Mister Rogers was a tattoed Marine Corps sniper in Vietnam.

Intellectual vomit! This is just pure crap that has somehow made it's way into accepted WWII lore.

I've submitted this one to Mythbusters, and I would put money that they bust it! You cannot hear the ping of the M1 Garand clip being ejected in the din of battle at average distances of WWII combat. That's my position, IMHO.

What say you?

PING!!!!

[101combatvet]

Well, I have to tell you that after sitting in Atwater's class for four months I didn't hear the man spew any BS in my opinion.

The story originates with WW2 GIs..... I believe I've heard a few tell it to me over the years. If you were charged after a "PING" it would have been more likely a Japanese soldier then a German one..... I think the German soldier would have just had you juggling his grenades. In my opinion the "PING" could be heard but it would depend on several circumstances.... like the distance to the Garand shooter and other noises on the battlefield.

[bigschuss]

Well, I have to tell you that after sitting in Atwater's class for four months I didn't hear the man spew any BS in my opinion.

The story originates with WW2 GIs..... I believe I've heard a few tell it to me over the years. If you were charged after a "PING" it would have been more likely a Japanese soldier then a German one..... I think the German soldier would have just had you juggling his grenades. In my opinion the "PING" could be heard but it would depend on several circumstances.... like the distance to the Garand shooter and other noises on the battlefield.

I'm sure he's a great intellectual when it comes to this stuff. And it must have been cool to be in his class.

But just like the guy below who declared "for the record" that the ping is caused by the en-bloc clip hitting the empty case, I think a lot of these men who speak with such authority are also capable of making glaring mistakes....just like the rest of us.

I still want to see this busted or confirmed on Mythbusters.

Ping!
Blair

[Willi Z.]

My military service and time under fire doesn't relate to this topic at all, so there is no point in mentioning it.

I have been around WWII veterans, both German and US, all my life. Some veterans tell silly stories. They repeat myths. I can recall several US veterans telling me about those nasty Germans and their wood tip bullets inflicting terrible wounds. Nonsense! I explained to them that they were blanks which they sometimes inserted into MG42 belts to slow down the expendicture of ammo, and would disintegrate upon leaving the barrel. I have fired wood tip blanks for decades. Just one example....could go on and on.

Re-enacting. Little in common to the real world. Depends on the quality of the unts. Most fight like they were in the Civil War.

I went to an event 2 weeks ago. Loaded up with wood tip blanks. We were in the woods, me with my FJs when we encountered GIs in the woods. They opened fire on us. Thompsons, Carbines and Garands. We returned fire. Mp40s, Mp44s, K43s, and k98ks. We could not even see how many GIs there were. Now I read this thread a few weeks ago but decided not to respond. So, at this event I was paying attention. I very CLEARLY heard the "ping" of a Garand clip at one point in the play firefight and will say that last though on my mind was that the GI who "pinged" was somehow vulnerable to any immediate assault. I didn't even know exactly where he was. No one in my unit even thought about leaving cover to assault at that point. In fact, since we knew we were outgunned and outnumbered we conducted a fighting withdrawl out of the kill zone. We ultimately came back on the flanks while pinning them from the front, and drove then out of the area.

[bigschuss]

My military service and time under fire doesn't relate to this topic at all, so there is no point in mentioning it.

I have been around WWII veterans, both German and US, all my life. Some veterans tell silly stories. They repeat myths. I can recall several US veterans telling me about those nasty Germans and their wood tip bullets inflicting terrible wounds. Nonsense! I explained to them that they were blanks which they sometimes inserted into MG42 belts to slow down the expendicture of ammo, and would disintegrate upon leaving the barrel. I have fired wood tip blanks for decades. Just one example....could go on and on.

Re-enacting. Little in common to the real world. Depends on the quality of the unts. Most fight like they were in the Civil War.

I went to an event 2 weeks ago. Loaded up with wood tip blanks. We were in the woods, me with my FJs when we encountered GIs in the woods. They opened fire on us. Thompsons, Carbines and Garands. We returned fire. Mp40s, Mp44s, K43s, and k98ks. We could not even see how many GIs there were. Now I read this thread a few weeks ago but decided not to respond. So, at this event I was paying attention. I very CLEARLY heard the "ping" of a Garand clip at one point in the play firefight and will say that last though on my mind was that the GI who "pinged" was somehow vulnerable to any immediate assault. I didn't even know exactly where he was. No one in my unit even thought about leaving cover to assault at that point. In fact, since we knew we were outgunned and outnumbered we conducted a fighting withdrawl out of the kill zone. We ultimately came back on the flanks while pinning them from the front, and drove then out of the area.

Interesting. A few questions:

1) are the blanks you guys use as loud as real ammo?
2) what was the distance of engagement?
3) do you guys wear hearing protection?

My guess is that the ammo is not as loud. If the blanks are as loud as real ammo, I can't imagine you guys don't wear hearing protection.

An off topic question....during your battles, how do you know who wins and who loses? You said they drove you out once and then you drove them out? I've never even been to a reenactment. How does it work? Is the battle pre-scripted like professional wrestling?

Best,
Blair

[leibermuster]

Interesting. A few questions:

1) are the blanks you guys use as loud as real ammo?
2) what was the distance of engagement?
3) do you guys wear hearing protection?

My guess is that the ammo is not as loud. If the blanks are as loud as real ammo, I can't imagine you guys don't wear hearing protection.

An off topic question....during your battles, how do you know who wins and who loses? You said they drove you out once and then you drove them out? I've never even been to a reenactment. How does it work? Is the battle pre-scripted like professional wrestling?

Best,
Blair

Some blanks are not as loud as live rounds, but other blanks are louder than live rounds. Some people use hearing protection, others do not. Some battles are scripted, but most are played out as they might have been back in WW2. You do not know who will 'win'. A lot of the fighting and hits are on an honor system. If you see someone pointing his Garand at you than you take the hit. It is more involved than this, but basically it is a common sense thing. If you are dug in or running it is harder to be hit. You should come to a reenactment sometime, they can be very interesting and are worth the effort.

[DennyB]

I never served in combat while in the military but I was involved in actions as a police officer where shots were exchanged and I can tell you that I honestly don't think I really heard how loud the noise of the pistols going off in close proximaty sounded. I knew they were going off but the .357 magnum that I was shooting didn't seem to really make much noise at all. I remember seeing the muzzleflash quite well but the sound wasn't very loud to me. I think they call it "The Fog of Battle"
Denny

[bigschuss]

Some blanks are not as loud as live rounds, but other blanks are louder than live rounds. Some people use hearing protection, others do not. Some battles are scripted, but most are played out as they might have been back in WW2. You do not know who will 'win'. A lot of the fighting and hits are on an honor system. If you see someone pointing his Garand at you than you take the hit. It is more involved than this, but basically it is a common sense thing. If you are dug in or running it is harder to be hit. You should come to a reenactment sometime, they can be very interesting and are worth the effort.

Thanks for the info. Yes, this makes sense. I can't imagine being around an M1 Garand (or K98 etc) firing blank ammo that's as loud as real ammo at these events. I've been caught without my hearing protection at the range and it is deafening. I'm sure that's all part of the whole reenacting thing; to live the whole experience of combat. But I don't think I would trade my hearing for the reenacting experience.

Great point, Denny. I was in exactly one brief and lop-sided firefight in Desert Storm, and had the same experience. So, now I wonder if the sounds of war are muted in that "fog of war" is it still possible to hear that ping? Man, this could be a Ph.D thesis!

[101combatvet]

Great point, Denny. I was in exactly one brief and lop-sided firefight in Desert Storm, and had the same experience. Great point. So, now I wonder if the sounds of war are muted in that "fog of war" is it still possible to hear that ping? Man, this could be a Ph.D thesis!

I've experienced a little action myself..... but for me it was as if I was aware of everything that was happening around me.... no "fog" for me at all. The only real oddity was that I was in a small group and weapons were chiming all around us.... after the smoke cleared I never heard any ringing in my ears as you would without hearing protection on a range. Everyone, reacts differently.... when the amount of epinephrine increases some respond by "fight or flight" as it turned out we fought and killed all our attackers. Hearing the "PING" now that I think about it... may have more to do with the harmonics of that sound then the noise levels... because the sound is that metal on metal twang it probably resonates in such a way that it can be heard over loader sounds.... very much like hearing the cymbals over bass drums.

[bigschuss]

I've experienced a little action myself..... but for me it was as if I was aware of everything that was happening around me.... no "fog" for me at all. The only real oddity was that I was in a small group and weapons were chiming all around us.... after the smoke cleared I never heard any ringing in my ears as you would without hearing protection on a range. Everyone, reacts differently.... when the amount of epinephrine increases some respond by "fight or flight" as it turned out we fought and killed all our attackers. Hearing the "PING" now that I think about it... may have more to do with the harmonics of that sound then the noise levels... because the sound is that metal on metal twang it probably resonates in such a way that it can be heard over loader sounds.... very much like hearing the cymbals over bass drums.

Another great point! Indeed very high frequencies and very low frequencies tend to travel the farthest. That's why early armies used to announce their pending arrival on the battlefield with the fife and base drum. I wonder if the ping, despite it being kind of a low decibal noise, is audible over the report of M2 ball because of its frequency.

I agree too. In my one experience around small arms fire, it was as if I was on autopilot. My senses became both highly focus, yet mute at the same time. The same thing happens when I bag a nice spring gobbler. I never hear the report or feel the kick of the shotgun like I do when I'm at the range.

[DennyB]

Oh, I was aware of every detail of what was going on other than the sound of a .357 magnum going off did not hurt my ears like it would have if I had simply taken it out and fired it. Hearing protection was needed when firing it.
On the firing range I don't recall ever noticing the muzzleflash but I did in the action, on the range I recall recoil but other than the barrel rising, I didn't really feel the recoil so much. It was as if there was a muffler on the extreme senses.

[101combatvet]

Another great point! Indeed very high frequencies and very low frequencies tend to travel the farthest. That's why early armies used to announce their pending arrival on the battlefield with the fife and base drum. I wonder if the ping, despite it being kind of a low decibal noise, is audible over the report of M2 ball because of its frequency.

I agree too. In my one experience around small arms fire, it was as if I was on autopilot. My senses became both highly focus, yet mute at the same time. The same thing happens when I bag a nice spring gobbler. I never hear the report or feel the kick of the shotgun like I do when I'm at the range.

I also think we are thinking about two completely different scenarios..... you speak of hearing the "PING" in a full fledged battle. I think of hearing the "PING" on a thin defensive line and the enemy is trying to probe your defenses at night. The enemy tests your perimeter..... you react by firing at their sounds giving away you position.... now they know you are green. They continue waiting for the "PING" as the signal to rush your slit trench. If your buddy is smart enough to cover you the attack will most likely fail.... but if he is not working with you.... the enemy will prevail this night.

[101combatvet]

I know you were..... I was just using the term "fog of battle" from your post.

Oh, I was aware of every detail of what was going on other than the sound of a .357 magnum going off did not hurt my ears like it would have if I had simply taken it out and fired it. Hearing protection was needed when firing it.
On the firing range I don't recall ever noticing the muzzleflash but I did in the action, on the range I recall recoil but other than the barrel rising, I didn't really feel the recoil so much. It was as if there was a muffler on the extreme senses.