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**Gary Cain** · 03-13-2009, 10:56 AM

It is a well documented fact that First Special Service Force Johnnie Gunners(the Johnson Lioght Machine Gun that they were issued) would fire 8 rounds from the gun then toss a Garand clip into the air and when the Germans attacked they would be shot down by the remaining 12 rounds in the magazine. My personal opinion is it was both an auditory and visual cue that the Garand was empty. Most of their combat was at fairly close ranges(Monte La Difensa and Anzio patrols is where a lot of this occured) and while reenacting is certainly not the same as combat, it does definately help to determine what works and what does not in a general way. I used reenacting to determine what the best way of carrying weapons on long marches was and how difficult it was to maintain an MG34 or MG42 with Lafette on the march.
So while I agree reenacting is not and never will be the real thing(thank God!) it does give a far more realistic insight into the way things work than merely reading about them.

Gary

**r_hufschmied** · 03-13-2009, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by herrzark View Post

i tried it only in trainning.but of course when you are in combat and you are experienced like the ss 5 sec are to much

The SS-supersoldier, another myth that needs debunking. They were, for the most part, highly motivated (indoctrinated) yes and brave to the point of stupidity but supersoldiers they were not!

**bigschuss** · 03-13-2009, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Gary Cain View Post

It is a well documented fact that First Special Service Force Johnnie Gunners(the Johnson Lioght Machine Gun that they were issued) would fire 8 rounds from the gun then toss a Garand clip into the air and when the Germans attacked they would be shot down by the remaining 12 rounds in the magazine.

Gary

The problem with this well documented fact is that the ping is not caused by the clip hitting the ground. The ping is caused by the en-bloc clip being ejected as the 8th round is fired. No Garand....no ping.

How loud do you think a small, metallic clip is when it hits dirt or grass?

The idea that as a matter of course these guys would throw the clip in the air and then kill charging Germans time after time I think is just lore...like Mister Rogers as a Marine Corps sniper. It doesn't add up.

Again, I think time clouds the memory of men even like Gunners, and these stories, that are maybe just rumors during the war, get passed around and passed around. And 60 years later it is widely accepted that G.I.'s could trick naive Germans into charging by tossing a Garand clip in the air...

**jugendkrieger** · 03-13-2009, 01:27 PM

I cant say much about firing an M1 live, I know that due to the Blank firing adapter on the end of the Barrel it might give a less report than without. I know that my 98 is actually louder than with Ball ammo. different sound, but decidedly louder. The Live ammunition gives a "sharper" report, with the blank being a dull loud bang, I believe it to be because there is no projectile stifling the sound of the gases exiting the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tex0VKJRbQ
This is a typical report heard at a reenactment, many, many times

**PlaceOfBayonets** · 03-13-2009, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by bigschuss View Post

I'm not trying to be anti-reenacting, but I don't think it's a fair arguement to use reenacting "combat experience" as evidence. It's just not real.

For one, do you guys use M2 ball in your Garands? To be downrange of an M1 Garand at a distance of 50 meters and hear the "ping" over the report of M2 Ball is, IMHO, impossible. If you hear the ping over the blanks, that's one thing.

But to be fair, I know nothing about reenacting, and I am curious to know more. I doubt you guys are using a cartridge that is louder than M2 ball. Am I wrong? And I doubt the 8mm blanks you use are louder than an actual 8mm cartridge. Ditto for every other weapon on the "battlefield."

Combat during re enacting is not much different then when militaries used to train with blanks before the days of MILES gear. Observations on tactics and tricks of the trade by re enactors are still somewhat valid.

W.

**Rylan** · 03-13-2009, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by bigschuss View Post

...that the ping is not caused by the clip hitting the ground. The ping is caused by the en-bloc clip being ejected as the 8th round is fired. No Garand....no ping.

Thank you! I think some people are missing that point... Even with hearing protection, I always hear the PING sound, loud and clear. It doesn't even really make a noise when it hits the ground.

**Gary Cain** · 03-13-2009, 05:31 PM

The after action reports were written IMMEDIATELY after the actions where these tactics were used(especially the attack on Monte La Difensa which was very heavily studied at the time in preperation for the upcoming assault on Cassino). Please note I think the visual cue was even more important than the sound and as I have a Garand and shoot it quite regularly I am very conversant with the sounds they make. And for the record the ping is caused by the last brass casing AND the en-bloc clip striking each other as they are ejected from the rifle.

One other thing, I am a member of the Luftland Sturm Regiment Kameradschaft(WWII German Paratroopers Veterans Association) and in my conversations with members of the 3rd FJR they mention hearing and seeing the clip fly from the 36th ID soldiers and timing their counterattacks
for that moment. But hey they were only there...they don't know anything!

Cheers
Gary

Originally posted by bigschuss View Post

The problem with this well documented fact is that the ping is not caused by the clip hitting the ground. The ping is caused by the en-bloc clip being ejected as the 8th round is fired. No Garand....no ping.

How loud do you think a small, metallic clip is when it hits dirt or grass?

The idea that as a matter of course these guys would throw the clip in the air and then kill charging Germans time after time I think is just lore...like Mister Rogers as a Marine Corps sniper. It doesn't add up.

Again, I think time clouds the memory of men even like Gunners, and these stories, that are maybe just rumors during the war, get passed around and passed around. And 60 years later it is widely accepted that G.I.'s could trick naive Germans into charging by tossing a Garand clip in the air...

**bigschuss** · 03-14-2009, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Gary Cain View Post

The after action reports were written IMMEDIATELY after the actions where these tactics were used(especially the attack on Monte La Difensa which was very heavily studied at the time in preperation for the upcoming assault on Cassino). Please note I think the visual cue was even more important than the sound and as I have a Garand and shoot it quite regularly I am very conversant with the sounds they make. And for the record the ping is caused by the last brass casing AND the en-bloc clip striking each other as they are ejected from the rifle.

One other thing, I am a member of the Luftland Sturm Regiment Kameradschaft(WWII German Paratroopers Veterans Association) and in my conversations with members of the 3rd FJR they mention hearing and seeing the clip fly from the 36th ID soldiers and timing their counterattacks
for that moment. But hey they were only there...they don't know anything!

Cheers
Gary

Hi Gary,

I am skeptical. Sorry. Do you really think Germans would attack even when they saw the en-bloc clip? And what about the rest of the G.I.'s? Did they all run out of ammo at precisely the same moment? This is nonsense. And even if it did happen once....and that's a big IF....do you think the Germans would keep on falling for it tme and again as we are led to believe?

And you are absolutely incorrect about the cause of the ping. Not sure how much time you've spent firing your Garand. But anybody who fires these things a lot would know that the timing cycle of the ejection of the spent casing and the en-bloc lip are not in unison. The spent casing is ejected immdediately as the bolt is thrown open. The en-bloc clip is then ejected after. Look in the pic I posted. You see the clip in mid air, but where is the casing? It is long gone.

The casing does not hit the clip. More lore I guess? But this is exactly what I am talking about. Misinformation that gets passed around "for the record" in your words, and it is simply untrue.

As for the original legend....yes, I suppose that maybe a single German may have charged a G.I. having heard that ping under the exact right conditions. But based on these TV experts and the after battle reports, we are made to think that this was a common practice.

I say "bunk!"

**ottodog8** · 03-15-2009, 03:05 PM

Over the last 40 years, I've spoken with many, many GIs who were combat vets, both Europe and Pacific, and asked them specifically about this. Without exception, they either never heard of the problem or just laughed out loud. They all said there was so much noise, and so much "stuff" flying around, both coming and going, that the ping of the clip was irrelevant.
They also all loved the M1. Heavy, yes. Comments like "if we could see it we could hit it" and "yeah, the carbine was light, but if you wanted to stay alive you carried an M1". They also always referred to the M1 carbine as "the carbine" and the M1 rifle as "the M1".
Steve

**Homer Hodge** · 03-17-2009, 10:47 AM

I agree with BigSchuss.
Having experienced "close encounters of the worst kind" in Vietnam, I would say that the primary characteristic of a firefight, especially one that is up close and personal, is a cacophony of very loud noise. Although we were armed with M16s, I was very familiar with the M1 Garand from my earlier service and training and I seriously doubt the ping of an ejecting clip would have been discernable amidst all the other noise of small arms firing, exploding grenades, people yelling and other sounds. The movies and TV notwithstanding, I would add that firefights in combat are very rarely one-on-one.

**PlaceOfBayonets** · 03-17-2009, 07:21 PM

Just to add, I think the myth might apply where the line is very lightly manned and the Germans were aware of it. Battle of the bulge would be one such battle where the line might be manned by a guy every 20 feet or so or two guys in fox holes spaced far enough apart that a ping might lead to a charge.

If you have orders to take a position and you can either do it when you hear a ping or not what might you do?

W.

**Lombardi** · 03-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Hello.

Let's see.

The germans waited for the "ping" and then "charged"?

"charged"? in 1943-1945? or like a "Banzai" charge?

Yes, obviously in 1943-1945 there was close combats, but most of the fighting was at 100+ meters... and the main killers were, for infantry weapons, Mgs...

Eventually, taking for granted that the german soldier could hear the ping, he will maybe expose himself a little more to fire his weapon from a better position that will permit a better LOS, or toss an hand grenade, but "charge"... maybe after taking a little time to fix his bayonet (not sharpened in years, matybe...)???

Just my two cents.

And for US Army after action reports... some of them seems selected and printed for propaganda use, like the ones that stated that german MGs fire was "low on the ground" so you can actually jump over the Mgs burts...
And also the Johnson gunners episode could be real BUT for a single instance: remains the fact that 99.9% of the time, modern warfare (also in small unit combat) is NOT one vs one, but unit (even small) against unit, so it's impossible that ALL the men of an unit ends the ammo at the same moment!!! ;-))))

**PlaceOfBayonets** · 03-19-2009, 06:36 PM

Not sure is this was all about a charge and only a charge due to the ping. I thought it was all about the ping leading to some deaths that might not have otherwise have occured no matter what facilitated the death, charge, hand grenade or other..... due to the ping being heard by German forces.

I think this myth applies where it applies and does not apply where it did not apply.

Simple for me after reading all the posts.

W.

**Jean-Loup** · 03-19-2009, 07:03 PM

"It is a well documented fact that First Special Service Force Johnnie Gunners(the Johnson Lioght Machine Gun that they were issued) would fire 8 rounds from the gun then toss a Garand clip into the air and when the Germans attacked they would be shot down by the remaining 12 rounds in the magazine. "

Can you post your source for this info? I have read several books about and by FSSF vets as well as talked to many of them and have never heard anything about this. Maybe the after action report was written by somebody with a lot of imagination.

The fact is that in WW2 combat most men were killed by artillery; and most men who were hit by bullets were shot from far off. The close quarter stuff was the exception by far. Many soldiers were killed or wounded before ever getting to fire their rifle in combat a single time.

Attacking when hearing the ping would only make any sence if there was one single GI involved in that specific area of battle, and if the battle was at very close quarters. It probably happened a few times in the war.

**landsknechte** · 03-19-2009, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by bigschuss View Post

I'm not trying to be anti-reenacting, but I don't think it's a fair arguement to use reenacting "combat experience" as evidence. It's just not real.

For one, do you guys use M2 ball in your Garands? To be downrange of an M1 Garand at a distance of 50 meters and hear the "ping" over the report of M2 Ball is, IMHO, impossible. If you hear the ping over the blanks, that's one thing.

But to be fair, I know nothing about reenacting, and I am curious to know more. I doubt you guys are using a cartridge that is louder than M2 ball. Am I wrong? And I doubt the 8mm blanks you use are louder than an actual 8mm cartridge. Ditto for every other weapon on the "battlefield."

Depends on what sort of "experience" you're trying to draw out of reenacting. Some of the experiences with the equipment is perfectly valid, and some isn't. That being said, I've reenacted on both sides. On the GI side, I've heard the "ping" countless times from guys firing near me. While on the other side, at a reasonable "combat" distance, I've never once heard it. Personally, I'd like to hear some accounts from people who faced Garands in combat before saying for certain. The whole thing seems like something of an urban legend, IMHO.

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