GFM von Bock's KC?

[Detlev Niemann]

Good morning,

Bock's cross is illustrated in my priceguide, page 481 a

It's along with his PLM, other awards, soldbook, papers...in a large european collection and has nothing to do with the orders which are fotographed above. There are some nice large size portraitfotos of Bock, even Hoffmann cards, where you can compare his KC with the one in my book.
regards
detlev

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Good morning,

Bock's cross is illustrated in my priceguide, page 481 a

It's along with his PLM, other awards, soldbook, papers...in a large european collection and has nothing to do with the orders which are fotographed above. There are some nice large size portraitfotos of Bock, even Hoffmann cards, where you can compare his KC with the one in my book.
regards
detlev

...thread closed I suppose...
Pieter.

[tom hansen]

"...in a large european collection "


I would not bet the farm, but probably all of the outbuildings, that the collection is somewhere near Belgium !

[Dietrich Maerz]

So that would also mean that the PLM in the picture in Stephen's book as well as the set on the site (which seems to be the same source) is not the original piece. So maybe Stephen can shed some light into this?

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich...I think you are catching on


Let's not let this von Bock (thing) just go away as this stuff is just rampant in the hobby!

There are collectors who 'want' so badly that they accept extraordinary stories, pictures and tall tales. Unwittingly, they 'skew' things to suit their hope without looking at things in a logical, calm and learned manner!

Let's try and look at the Cross, PLM and uniform and discount items as we look. I'm sure that the owner of the original, fine and rare items will benifit greatly as will the entire community, the exposure of these items.!

[Harry]

Next time there is a Dentist conference in Belgium, I will be skipping over, tax deductable of course!

Pieter, I would love to meet up

[tom hansen]

The interesting thing about this whole issue is the acceptance of a piece being period, then trying to explain why it is real, rather than trying to explain whether something is real, then evaluating whether it is period. I think we should focus on the pieces themselves and try to avoid the "background" which may have been created (as it appears in this case), whether through a tale or other items, to lend authenticity to a piece.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

I was just reading thru the whole thread and I don't find anything explaining the "real". Sure, there was the assumption that is is real because of the alledged background. I swa more allegations of being 'not real' because of certain Latvian features.

Now here's the question:

- is the RK in this thread (now) a fake because it's not von Bock's?

Isn't that the same circumstantial deduction? So far - to be perfectly honest - all that is known is that this RK is not Bock's RK - based on the word of DN and PV (which I have no problem believeing at all). So everything beyond that is conjecture, right?

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Deitrich-


The cross in question does not conform to any known RK. That in of itself would signify that it is probably a fake. I said earlier that I do not know what it is, as it does not appear as any known cross. The possibility beyond that would be that it is a previously unknown cross, as Detlev's cross, which has been claimed to be period. The only information that this cross had on the positive side was the claim that it is an actual award piece. It is decorated with presumably an original PLM as well, as Steve Previterra has probably analyzed that piece. I rarely believe these stories; they can never really be proved or disproved and are therefore nearly irrelevant. However, we tend to accept these tales to the point at which judgement becomes biased and objectivity is sacrificed. Everyone wants to believe these stories, as we are all interested in history and are all pretty much suckers for a good tale (I know I am!). Yet when these stories are questioned, which should be done in an objective evaluation of any piece, hackles are raised, as usually there is an offended teller behind the tale.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

basically you are right: It's unknown to date - so it must bge fake. However, I really do not subscribe to this approach - for several reasons:

- "we" here have by far not seen everything (I know I certainly don't..)
- to judge an "unknown" piece by comparison might be foolish. Cpmpare to what?

As can be seen with the Detlev unknown, this approach leads to dismissal of a perfectly genuine piece. However, I'm not saying this piece is good or bad - how could I know? For sure, the current circumstances shed a bad light on it!

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

I agree with you, Dietrich. I said it was probably a fake, not that it is a fake. I agree that perhaps some pieces may pop up that were previously unknown. I think that the S&L RK with the unknown core is an example of that. The "good" fakes, however, will be ones of previously unknown maker, otherwise they would be too easy to detect. Look at the dotted DKiGs. These were promoted as zimmermans, but did not even have the correct wreath, let alone the dots on the date. I am sure that someone, perhaps a dealer, commissioned a few as a trial balloon and has not ordered more made, given that they did not go over well. They would be better off making a completely unknown type, with which there is nothing to objectively compare, and call it a new type or "variant". That is my feeling about the von Bock piece. Then it comes down to evaluation of quality of construction and materials, which is much more messy than a piece marked "L/12" or "20" which can be easily compared to original pieces.

[Brian S]

What an interesting thread.

The same group of know it alls crying about Rounders when nothing was said about Rounders. Crying about this cross being 'real' when only questions were asked.

No suggested this as an early variant of the Rounder.

Pieter won't post a photo of a Hoffmann card, aren't you a big help here on this forum...

"There are collectors who 'want' so badly that they accept extraordinary stories, pictures and tall tales. Unwittingly, they 'skew' things to suit their hope without looking at things in a logical, calm and learned manner!" Really? Where exactly did this occur? Missed it entirely, I mean, because it didn't happen.

REALITY CHECK: A cross photo was presented of a cross none of us has ever seen. Questions were asked, "anyone know what it is?"

REALITY CHECK: Nasty insinuations were slung at phantom posters about the need to see reality when there was none.

Hmmm, why are there so few interested people in these RK threads now.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

What an interesting thread.

The same group of know it alls crying about Rounders when nothing was said about Rounders. Crying about this cross being 'real' when only questions were asked.

No suggested this as an early variant of the Rounder.

Pieter won't post a photo of a Hoffmann card, aren't you a big help here on this forum...

"There are collectors who 'want' so badly that they accept extraordinary stories, pictures and tall tales. Unwittingly, they 'skew' things to suit their hope without looking at things in a logical, calm and learned manner!" Really? Where exactly did this occur? Missed it entirely, I mean, because it didn't happen.

REALITY CHECK: A cross photo was presented of a cross none of us has ever seen. Questions were asked, "anyone know what it is?"

REALITY CHECK: Nasty insinuations were slung at phantom posters about the need to see reality when there was none.

Hmmm, why are there so few interested people in these RK threads now.

....I'm yust waiting to get expelled ...(woops.... I hope I didn't make any gramatical errors).

But Brian, posting a Hoffmann card of von Bock won't be that difficult for you? Not that I cannot show one but mine has something special on it and cannot be shown to everybody, hope you understand...thank you.

Pieter.

[Brian S]

....I'm yust waiting to get expelled ...(woops.... I hope I didn't make any gramatical errors).

But Brian, posting a Hoffmann card of von Bock won't be that difficult for you? Not that I cannot show one but mine has something special on it and cannot be shown to everybody, hope you understand...thank you.

Pieter.

Well, thanks again for sharing Pieter.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Well, thanks again for sharing Pieter.

...you're more than welcome
Pieter.