Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[Bob Hritz]

We know the Polish resistance fighters used SS camo they captured during the Warsau Uprising. I have wondered, with no empiracle evidence, if Polish laborers may have produced copys of the German smocks, considering they believed they would have success in the battle for Warsau. I would feel better about this idea if there were some sort of headgear produced from the same pattern and material.

Bob Hritz

[viva_giulio]

More believable post war military artifacts. All' copied German çammo and Russia done it till 90s.
One of the key could be the chimic exam of green colour cause it was unique.

[viva_giulio]

Seems the Egyptians liked to copy German camo. See the first couple of paragraphs here: http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Egypt A little later (@1956?), but "pink" would certainly work well in certain desert areas.

Just moving "outside the box" a bit (as a non-SS collector).

Forgive the intrusion.

I didn t see this reply. This is also my point of view.

[phild]

The problem with the theory that these were clandestine copies made by an opposition power during WWII is the same problem that I have with these being made up for "experimental" military use after WWII by "some country".

The degree of detail these follow to the German SS smock construction is exact, regardless of anything different claimed by one of two others. Every seam is in the right place and made the right way in terms of slevage orientation, cross tack stitch and the exact way the pocket bags are sewn and sewn into the smock......down to the 2cm button backing patches.......this simply was not done on any copy for any reason unless it had to pass an acceptance inspection by someone who knew and was looking for everyone of the those details. ........OR it was being made to fool collectors with a forensic level knowledge of detail on this type of garment........which did not exist in 1980/81 much less the later 70s when this operation would have had to have begun.

I think that it is much more likely that Himmler and his family made these in their basement than it is that a foreign power made these for covert operations (with hand sewn eyelets, hbt pocket bags, 2000 pebbled buttons and reinforcement patches) and out of the "wrong" color shade.

Very difficult for me to understand why so many fight the obvious answer in every situation. These theories about covert use or S. Korean manufacture or costume house make up need to be explained in context to the detail that these smocks exhibit and not just thrown over the wall as a petard to confuse and damage the facts.


This is the conclusion I reached when I first examined these and everything that I have seen since then....almost 40 years now, has reinforced this conclusion.

[phild]

I didn t see this reply. This is also my point of view.

So you are sure that is was either Egypt or the USSR that copied these, Right?

Makes perfect sense, now were know or at least down to two possibilities. Thanks for clearing this mystery up.

[nutmeg]

Letter from the Minsk City Museum

Dear Victor

In front of me Act number 3 of 21 March 1945: "We, the undersigned, members of the commission for acceptance of the Museum property, brought from the 1st Belorussian Front as part of TT. Sablin V., Dvorkin SI Dovnor-Zapolskaya R. and N. Babich made this act of March 21 1945goda in the following:
A team under the direction of VV Sablina I passed, and the stock of the Museum Department in the person of the chief keeper of Comrade funds. Dworkin took the following property:
... 3 / Captured uniforms of various types of German troops:
and / overcoat
b / tunics
in / shirts for uniforms, etc. "
At the same time brought to the museum frames, lights, lamps, glass lamp, envelopes, notebooks, pencils, ie. a lot of accessories to create economic and exposition in the museum.
What I quoted is you? To you plunged into the atmosphere only recently freed, which was destroyed in Minsk in March 1945. Just create a museum on the theme of the Great Patriotic War, still ongoing, war, collecting as many materials - by this time it was collected more than 10-12 thousand exhibits, and, therefore, revenues books recording the minimum. Acts were compiled every time - in a hurry to collect the footsteps of German crimes, collect the partisans, went to the front.
You know, how far were the thoughts and write a few employees from being able to find documents or questioning there, in Poland about the origin of uniforms. When 30 years ago I asked one of the living members of a trip to Berlin, P.N.Goncharova about where and on what basis they were selected, in particular, the uniform, he laughed about the "methodology" of selection and one actually said: "we have seen - in the stations, warehouses, homes, and then take." As you can see, with the "Concept of acquisition" during the war it was not to study the source base.
Sorry, I could not help you, but now I am more deeply acquainted with the history of the beginning of our museum.
Sincerely, Galina.

[Jeff V]

The problem with the theory that these were clandestine copies made by an opposition power during WWII is the same problem that I have with these being made up for "experimental" military use after WWII by "some country".

The degree of detail these follow to the German SS smock construction is exact, regardless of anything different claimed by one of two others. Every seam is in the right place and made the right way in terms of slevage orientation, cross tack stitch and the exact way the pocket bags are sewn and sewn into the smock......down to the 2cm button backing patches.......this simply was not done on any copy for any reason unless it had to pass an acceptance inspection by someone who knew and was looking for everyone of the those details. ........OR it was being made to fool collectors with a forensic level knowledge of detail on this type of garment........which did not exist in 1980/81 much less the later 70s when this operation would have had to have begun.

I think that it is much more likely that Himmler and his family made these in their basement than it is that a foreign power made these for covert operations (with hand sewn eyelets, hbt pocket bags, 2000 pebbled buttons and reinforcement patches) and out of the "wrong" color shade.

Very difficult for me to understand why so many fight the obvious answer in every situation. These theories about covert use or S. Korean manufacture or costume house make up need to be explained in context to the detail that these smocks exhibit and not just thrown over the wall as a petard to confuse and damage the facts.


This is the conclusion I reached when I first examined these and everything that I have seen since then....almost 40 years now, has reinforced this conclusion.

the most likely scenario is the made to deceive fake

[viva_giulio]

So you are sure that is was either Egypt or the USSR that copied these, Right?

Makes perfect sense, now were know or at least down to two possibilities. Thanks for clearing this mystery up.

Do not know where of course.

[nutmeg]

the most likely scenario is the made to deceive fake

Having printed up the cloth at probably a good bit of expense why not make other items, caps, helmet covers etc.? It would seem to me , those would be easier to make and on a percentage basis more profitable, especially the caps. By the same token if you are going to all that trouble why not get the colors the same or at least closer to the standard item.?

[nutmeg]

There was actually a Minsk-Film , it is not a fantasy company as you see by the researcher's report. After the Soviets took over it went back to work and was named Belarus Film in 1946. One could suppose they didn't bother getting new the rubber stamps immediately in 1946 and used what was on hand, just changing the date. Possibly everyone didn't get the news of the name change right away, or didn't act on it. This is immediate post war era so such things may not have been a priority .

What the researcher found.

Please, ask the customer what does he mean: There are several German WW2 uniforms that are stamped What do you mean by German uniforms WW2 in 1947?
Hope, you know: "Minsk-Film" studio works in 1941-1944 during period of occupation because the studio did not have time to evacuate. The Germans found working equipment and ordered to make newsreels. Now these newsreels of Minsk-Film by 1941-1944 are kept in Film archive of Belorussia. I have seen them totally there. If the customer means so, I can find some papers of Minsk-Film of 1941-1944.
Explain me, please.





after the retaking of Minsk the film studio was named Belaras Film in 1946.

[nutmeg]

We know the Polish resistance fighters used SS camo they captured during the Warsau Uprising. I have wondered, with no empiracle evidence, if Polish laborers may have produced copys of the German smocks, considering they believed they would have success in the battle for Warsau. I would feel better about this idea if there were some sort of headgear produced from the same pattern and material.

Bob Hritz

Lodz and others cities in Poland were pretty much the clothing manufacturing center of Europe for cotton and woolen fabrics. This also included printing and dying work. I would expect making camo smocks would not have been an issue.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Cl...istory&f=false

The researcher did mention some German uniforms were aquired from the "Polish Sewing factories" but when I pressed him for documentation nothing came of it.

[90th Light]

More believable post war military artifacts. All' copied German çammo and Russia done it till 90s.
One of the key could be the chimic exam of green colour cause it was unique.

The greens in the Pink-Brick-Birch smock are not unique. Every shade/ hue of green used can be matched perfectly with greens used on other SS camo clothing made before May 1945. Not every SS camo items had these greens but many did as the study below proves.


Comparison of the matching green shade

There is a "Oak type-B" Zelt and a "Pink" in these two images. Which is which ? If the "Pink" is made from a cloth nothing like a war-time cloth used by the SS to make late war Zelts, as is so often claim by those who say "no" on these threads ?

Top image is without sunlight on it but natural light. Bottom image has natural sun light shining directly on it.

If the "Pink" is made from a fake cloth so obviously wrong to the "expert" eye, then which is the "Oak type-B" Zelt ? Left or right ?

Chris

[Jeff V]

Having printed up the cloth at probably a good bit of expense why not make other items, caps, helmet covers etc.? It would seem to me , those would be easier to make and on a percentage basis more profitable, especially the caps. By the same token if you are going to all that trouble why not get the colors the same or at least closer to the standard item.?

I don't know why they did not make other items. As far as the colors go it is my understanding that the reproducers of camo such as S&M and At The Front have a difficult time getting the colors just right.

[phild]

I don't know why they did not make other items. As far as the colors go it is my understanding that the reproducers of camo such as S&M and At The Front have a difficult time getting the colors just right.

The Germans had this problem as well. I have examples and have seen many others of a garment made with camo from two different print batches was parts showing very different color values of the same parttern. Marsh pattern or Sumpf tarn is famous for this characteristic.

[phild]

The greens in the Pink-Brick-Birch smock are not unique. Every shade/ hue of green used can be matched perfectly with greens used on other SS camo clothing made before May 1945. Not every SS camo items had these greens but many did as the study below proves.


Comparison of the matching green shade

There is a "Oak type-B" Zelt and a "Pink" in these two images. Which is which ? If the "Pink" is made from a cloth nothing like a war-time cloth used by the SS to make late war Zelts, as is so often claim by those who say "no" on these threads ?

Top image is without sunlight on it but natural light. Bottom image has natural sun light shining directly on it.

If the "Pink" is made from a fake cloth so obviously wrong to the "expert" eye, then which is the "Oak type-B" Zelt ? Left or right ?

Chris

This is a proper comparison