Mike Beaver and Mark Bando SS insignia book

[90th Light]

cast-fakes discussed here are fake. there are a lot of other fakes Chris you can see them even on the cover of books (2-nd below) or sold by B.Shea (4-th below). I have dozens more on file. They are all different types and some are of even better quality than the fakes discussed in this thread. Sorry I am not going to prove you why each and everyone of them is fake because it is too obvious to me to talk about. You of course can consider them all original but for me there are only two confirmed original types (one type that Markus showed in the post#65 and the second type I showed in the post#72).

How are these ones that you now show on book covers or what ever else "drill-hole LAH cyphers" ???

I want to see comparative images showing the flaws from the original LAH cypher which the :drill-hole LAH cyphers" have been copied from. If they are copy-cast reproductions then they will have common flaws which have been reproduced in each cypher. Norm.F. show this clearly with the KM badges and it is an accepted way of identifying a cast fake.

At the very least, show me all these casting "surface pits, dots and blobs" that you are telling me are so easy to see on the cyphers shown in the posts numbered 68 to 76 inclusive. Please post close ups or enhanced images of those. And I do not mean dents from wear and tear.

Lets please stay focused on the drill-hole type under discussion not other types,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

How are these ones that you now show on book covers or what ever else "drill-hole LAH cyphers" ???

I want to see comparative images showing the flaws from the original LAH cypher which the :drill-hole LAH cyphers" have been copied from. If they are copy-cast reproductions then they will have common flaws which have been reproduced in each cypher. Norm.F. show this clearly with the KM badges and it is an accepted way of identifying a cast fake.

At the very least, show me all these casting "surface pits, dots and blobs" that you are telling me are so easy to see on the cyphers shown in the posts numbered 68 to 76 inclusive. Please post close ups or enhanced images of those. And I do not mean dents from wear and tear.

Lets please stay focused on the drill-hole type under discussion not other types,

Chris

Chris, the things that you ask me to demonstrate you ("surface pits, dots and blobs") are in the pictures I already posted. If you cannot see the cast flaws then sorry man I am not going into such basics. BTW copy-cast reproductions do not always have common flaws. If the flaws are not part of the mold, flaws will differ from one copy to another, yet by comparing micro-details you can always see that they are from the same mold

[90th Light]

Chris, the things that you ask me to demonstrate you ("surface pits, dots and blobs") are in the pictures I already posted. If you cannot see the cast flaws then sorry man I am not going into such basics. BTW copy-cast reproductions do not always have common flaws. If the flaws are not part of the mold, flaws will differ from one copy to another.

OK then if I can not see them, then it should not be hard for you using a red arrow or circle to re-post the images from post numbers 68 to 76 and show me where they are. I want to see;

1/ surface pits

2/ casting dots

3/ casting blobs

Copy/ reproduction KM, LW or WH badges all have common flaws. Why would copy-cast LAH cyphers be any different ??? The common flaws are a proven way of identfying fakes made that way,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

OK then if I can not see them, then it should not be hard for you using a red arrow or circle to re-post the images from post numbers 68 to 76 and show me where they are. I want to see;

1/ surface pits

2/ casting dots

3/ casting blobs

Copy/ reproduction KM, LW or WH badges all have common flaws. Why would copy-cast LAH cyphers be any different ??? The common flaws are a proven way of identfying fakes made that way,

Chris

Common flaws are not necessary a sign of reproduction. Originals do have common die-flaws too.
Can you see cast signs without "red arrows or circles" in these pictures that I already posted yesterday?

[90th Light]

Common flaws are not necessary a sign of reproduction. Originals do have common die-flaws too.
Can you see cast signs without "red arrows or circles" in these pictures that I already posted yesterday?

What I like about the way Norm.F. has done it. You can see the dots and blobs.

Copy-casting items always have some dots and blobs.

However, You can get a rougher effect on the back of something made via heated die-cast/ die stamped when the metal cools too fast. This can be seen on some period badges made before May 1945.

Its explained on thread like this. I can post more links to more threads where it is discussed if necessary;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=cooled

Hello All,

The reverse "construction" of the Wiedmann looks like a classic case of a "short shot". Not enough material was injected into the mold and it cooled before it could fill out. The line parallel with the barrel are the two cold "flow fronts" coming together forming a visible line because the liquid metal had already started to "freeze up." Given that this area of the badge was not able to properly "fill out" it would also result in not enough material pressing up against the obverse face of the die/mold resulting in fainter details on the obverse of the badge. This one should never have made it past quality control.

Just my two cents from industry experience...

Eric

The top LAH cypher shows a rougher effect to the reverse. The lower cypher does not. Which images showed the copy-cast "dots and blobs" ?

Yes I agree that originals have flaws. However, all cast copies made from that original will have the exact same flaws in the exact same places as the original. That is what Norm.F. was showing on the "FO" HSF badge. Same would apply to reproduced LAH cyphers,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

What O like about the way Norm.F. has done it. You can see the dots and blobs.

Copy-casting items always have some dots and blobs.

However, You can get a rougher effect on the back of something made via heated die-cast/ die stamped when the metal cools too fast. This can be seen on some period badges made before May 1945.

The top LAH cypher shows a rougher effect to the reverse. The lower cypher does not. Which images showed the copy-cast "dots and blobs" ?

Yes I agree that originals have flaws. However, all cast copies made from that original will have the exact same flaws in the exact same places as the original. That is what Norm.F. was showing on the "FO" HSF badge. Same would apply to reproduced LAH cyphers,

Chris

"Copy-casting items always have some dots and blobs." - ONLY if those dots and blobs are a part of the mold. Perhaps what Norm.F. noticed is that original "High Sees Fleet" badges of this maker (Friedrich Orth) do not have those flaws while fakes all do because those flaws were in a newly made mold taken from an original badge. However, "pits, dots and blobs" can appear at random places - on every copy-casting item differently in places where metal cooled before reaching the surface of the mold.

[90th Light]

"Copy-casting items always have some dots and blobs." - ONLY if those dots and blobs are a part of the mold. Perhaps what Norm.F. noticed is that original "High Sees Fleet" badges of this maker (Friedrich Orth) do not have those flaws while fakes all do because those flaws were in a newly made mold taken from an original badge. However, "pits, dots and blobs" can appear at random places - on every copy-casting item differently in places where metal cooled before reaching the surface of the mold.

Hard to follow what your saying here.

However, where are any dots and blobs on the LAH cyphers that you have shown ?

Chris

[MM1985]

Here is one more fake cypher. I have had this one in Hand for study and there where several flaws from casting visible. One casting flaw was a Long slit on the side of the cypher (marked on the Picture).

If you look at DP cyphers you will find one one of them a similar flaw.

[Disco Partisan]

Hard to follow what your saying here.

However, where are any dots and blobs on the LAH cyphers that you have shown ?

Chris

see cast "dots and blobs" and uneven edges in the picture below

[90th Light]

Here is one more fake cypher. I have had this one in Hand for study and there where several flaws from casting visible. One casting flaw was a Long slit on the side of the cypher (marked on the Picture).

If you look at DP cyphers you will find one one of them a similar flaw.

Hello MM1985,

what is that cypher made from ?

In those images it looks like cupal. All I see is "slit" in the layer of copper,

Chris

[90th Light]

see cast "dots and blobs" and uneven edges in the picture below

What you are calling an "uneven edge" is typical of the wider edge from die-cast production. Even die-stamping in some cases. However if these were all copy-cast then the uneven edge would basically be the same on each one. On the examples you show it is not the same.

What you show as a "dot" could also be bit of excess from the trimming of the edge.

And the "blob" could be rough finish from what is described as "short shot" in post number 95.

Anyway this exchange of information between you and me is now going round in circles. I can see you are trying to point the dots and blobs out. However I would like to see more. Thus at this stage, I am not convinced but open-minded to the possibility.

I think we are both disadvantage by the quality of the images and the need an actual hands on inspection. Perhaps someone reading this might be kind enough to post nice clear images of the front and back of an example they have which is not pinned on to a shoulder-board. Plus other shoulder strap devices could be worth taking note of,

Chris

[MM1985]

Hello MM1985,

what is that cypher made from ?

In those images it looks like cupal. All I see is "slit" in the layer of copper,

Chris

Chris the slit is not only in the layer of copper it is throught the whole material - it is not so good visible on the Picture.
There where 1 or 2 more slits from casting but i did not take a Picture of them. I had 2 of this cyphers in Hand.

The backside of the cypher is imo painted with a copper Color to make it look like cupal but it is not.

Look at the Picture below. On the front side there are more then one casting flaws visible - if you look closely you will find more - i marked some on the Picture.

[Disco Partisan]

What you are calling an "uneven edge" is typical of the wider edge from die-cast production. Even die-stamping in some cases. However if these were all copy-cast then the uneven edge would basically be the same on each one. On the examples you show it is not the same.

What you show as a "dot" could also be bit of excess from the trimming of the edge.

And the "blob" could be rough finish from what is described as "short shot" in post number 95.

Anyway this exchange of information between you and me is now going round in circles. I can see you are trying to point the dots and blobs out. However I would like to see more. Thus at this stage, I am not convinced but open-minded to the possibility.

I think we are both disadvantage by the quality of the images and the need an actual hands on inspection. Perhaps someone reading this might be kind enough to post nice clear images of the front and back of an example they have which is not pinned on to a shoulder-board. Plus other shoulder strap devices could be worth taking note of,

Chris

Chris, again they look clearly cast to me. For more confirmation perhaps you should ask badges-guys in the Awards forum what they think about it but I am confident they will tell you the same thing that they are obvious cast.