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Mike Beaver and Mark Bando SS insignia book

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    #46
    Lah

    Chris ,have one of your " Ononynous" post a clear picture of the reverse .Make me a believer.

    The problem is Chris your great at throwing out "red herrings "

    If they're some " Ononynous " who believe in these they are in denial (IMHO)

    Cheers Steve
    Last edited by SJP; 04-24-2016, 09:37 PM.

    Comment


      #47
      Please post a 'drill-hole cypher' here with 100% provenance from the German veteran.

      Thank you.

      Markus

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by markus View Post
        Please post a 'drill-hole cypher' here with 100% provenance from the German veteran.

        Thank you.

        Markus
        These had provenance
        Cheers Steve
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by SJP View Post
          These had provenance
          Cheers Steve
          What kind Steve? Affidavit?

          They're complete rubbish.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by markus View Post
            What kind Steve? Affidavit?

            They're complete rubbish.
            Yes Markus , the problems are obvious when you can see both sides

            Chris ...please post your examples
            __________________________________________________ _____________
            Cheers Steve

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by SJP View Post
              Chris ,have one of your " Ononynous" post a clear picture of the reverse .Make me a believer.

              The problem is Chris your great at throwing out "red herrings "

              If they're some " Ononynous " who believe in these they are in denial (IMHO)

              Cheers Steve
              Well, if an LAH cypher from Ray Embree that Mark Bando put in a book he was finishing off for the late Mike Beaver ( Andrew Mollo put the same cypher in his book in 1976) is a red herring in minds of some then I am sure that is how they will see it regardless.

              Show me a "drill-hole cypher' here with 100% provenance from the German veteran" The same argument was presented in a book about glider pilot badges in regard to the "Ball Hinge Glider Badges". The list goes on.

              Again I repeat, Mark stated clearly and summed it up nicely when he said;
              "This debate remains unresolved"

              And until something concrete emerges one way or the other that is where it will stay for now regardless of one collectors opinion or summation of the situation verses another,

              Chris
              Last edited by 90th Light; 04-24-2016, 11:58 PM.

              Comment


                #52
                Dear Chris --

                Let's stick only to facts for a minute. No bla, bla please.

                Pls reply briefly and precisly on 3 questions and these 3 questions only:

                1) Pls show the revers of an original "drill-hole-cypher" from your sources.

                2) Have you ever owned or handled a "drill-hole-cypher" and compared it to a 100% attributed-original, accepted LAH cypher?

                3) Pls explain why "drill-hole-cyphers" are original in your opinion and point out the manufacturing differences to attributed/accepted pieces.

                Thank you.

                Markus

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by markus View Post
                  Dear Chris --

                  Let's stick only to facts for a minute. No bla, bla please.

                  Pls reply briefly and precisly on 3 questions and these 3 questions only:

                  1) Pls show the revers of an original "drill-hole-cypher" from your sources.

                  2) Have you ever owned or handled a "drill-hole-cypher" and compared it to a 100% attributed-original, accepted LAH cypher?

                  3) Pls explain why "drill-hole-cyphers" are original in your opinion and point out the manufacturing differences to attributed/accepted pieces.

                  Thank you.

                  Markus
                  I am sticking to the facts and have stated the situation clearly in post numbers 51, 45 & 42

                  Mark Bando has done a good job on the book and did the right thing including the "drilled-hole LAH cypher" in the interest of informing the collecting community about the debate surrounding that type.

                  Until some concrete evidence is found, who can say one way or the other for sure ?

                  It would be interesting to know where Ray Embree or Andrew Mollo got their examples from. The reality is that they both had examples in their collections and that is a fact that can not be ignored.

                  I will leave the questions and bla bla to you Markus because I am sure you will do a better job on those than me,

                  Chris

                  Comment


                    #54
                    So you by yourself cannot reply fact-orientated to any of the 3 questions I raised. I understand.

                    Thank you for nothing Chris.

                    Markus

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by markus View Post
                      So you by yourself cannot reply fact-orientated to any of the 3 questions I raised. I understand.

                      Thank you for nothing Chris.

                      Markus
                      How many facts and stories do you want Markus ?

                      I am avoiding getting bogged down in an endless debate which will go round and round and round in circles. This has happened on more than one thread in the past and just winds up going no where except to cause problems.

                      At this stage, you do not have the concrete evidence and I do not have the concrete evidence to prove this for sure one way or the other. We can post as many examples of god knows what from god knows where, till the cows come in. However, until something beyond absolute doubt emerges then that is all such threads about these "drilled-hole LAH cyphers" will achieve.

                      As already stated more than once, Mark Bando published in the book;

                      "This debate remains unresolved"

                      Chris
                      Last edited by 90th Light; 04-25-2016, 09:32 AM.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Chris, I assume you don't seriously collect by such criteria ('original until proven 100 % fake') yourself.

                        Beaver (Bando) and Mollo were incorrect about letting these slip into their books. We all make mistakes. Happens.

                        The drill-hole-cyphers do not correspond to any known wartime originals sourced from German veterans. Neither in quality, nor materials used.

                        The day you will physically hold one of these fakes in your left hand and an accepted original in your right, you will immediately see, feel and understand the difference. Trust me. I've been there myself.

                        Cheers,
                        Markus

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Why would it be worth for manufacturing to add a drilling process on the cyphers. It would clear reduce as well the quality of the cypher and the quality die struck process.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Robert H View Post
                            Why would it be worth for manufacturing to add a drilling process on the cyphers. It would clear reduce as well the quality of the cypher and the quality die struck process.
                            + 1

                            ...and prolong manufacturing-process time! As if these were hand made, cypher by cypher...

                            Clearly dentist drill/tooling used.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Robert H View Post
                              Why would it be worth for manufacturing to add a drilling process on the cyphers. It would clear reduce as well the quality of the cypher and the quality die struck process.
                              Robert,

                              while I agree it is an extra production step that seems unnecessary. Several badge manufacturers did that type of thing such as the early Juncker pilot, Deumer Pilot, OM pilot.

                              You also see this on the early Radio Operator badges with the degree of cut-out to the lighting bolts. They drill a hole first then finish with a hand saw and file.

                              Where items are hand finished the little extra mile is a possibility.

                              Also in regard to the point about no German veteran ever having one. The same was said about the Ball hinger glider badge but now we are confident that they were made. Also if a "drill-hole LAH cypher" was posted here on WAF then how would one prove it came from a veteran ? It is a very hard feature to see in a photo. Plus WAF often simply dismisses most veteran accounts these days. However WAF is not all collectors in the world and some especially advanced collectors of many years have not or no longer post on this forum.

                              I know the comparing of aircrew badges with SS LAH cyphers is a case of apples compared with oranges. However for a private contractor to win an SS contact especially early on then they sometimes had to go the extra mile. Plus some SS owned industries had some very skilled artisans working in them.

                              I suppose it comes down to Billbert's old saying;

                              "They never did that, yes they did",


                              Chris

                              p.s. To drill a hole in a LAH cypher is not exactly a big production or hand finish step. All you have to do is set up a drill press to do it. Cypher goes from stamping machine to drill press for holes. Reasonably simple/ easy.
                              Last edited by 90th Light; 04-25-2016, 06:08 PM.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                I have been collecting militaria since the late 1960s and I have made some very good purchases during that time…and some that turned out to be not so good.
                                But overall, I did quite well in collecting quality original items.

                                Since I know full well my limitations;
                                If I were to buy a nice matching set of LAH Cyphers….I would do my homework first and then run them by Steve or Markus before making the final decision.

                                As a collector, buyer, seller and investor, I know this;
                                At this time, I would not buy a drilled set of LAH Cyphers as an investment piece and I don't care how many books they are pictured in!

                                I could go on about other items found in books……but I won't in order to keep the focus on the drilled LAH cyphers.

                                Just my two cents.

                                Vilja
                                Last edited by Vilja; 04-25-2016, 06:41 PM. Reason: wording

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