Mike Beaver and Mark Bando SS insignia book

[NickG]

Well many collectors would initially never consider the printed SS sleeve eagles either, until finally proof surfaced that these not only existed, but were actually worn...
What I am trying to say is that this hobby is an on going research, study and learning experience with many twists and turns in the road! That's for sure!

[markus]

Chris --

It never ceases to amaze me (and others) how you always end up having the last word on everything even if, like in this case, you've never even personally handled LAH cyphers (the good and the bad)!

Ever asked youself why so many advanced collectors have left the forum in complete despair?

Cheers,
Markus

[90th Light]

I have been collecting militaria since the late 1960s and I have made some very good purchases during that time…and some that turned out to be not so good.
But overall, I did quite well in collecting quality original items.

Since I know full well my limitations;
If I were to buy a nice matching set of LAH Cyphers….I would do my homework first and then run them by Steve or Markus before making the final decision.

As a collector, buyer, seller and investor, I know this;
At this time, I would not buy a drilled set of LAH Cyphers as an investment piece and I don't care how many books they are pictured in!

I could go on about other items found in books……but I won't in order to keep the focus on the drilled LAH cyphers.

Just my two cents.

Vilja

In today's world I would not buy any SS shoulder boards or cyphers as an "investment" regardless of who vetted them, full stop. Perhaps in the times of the 1970's, 80's & 90's when the USA had inflation and stagflation but not now in a world of zero interest rates, deflation and economic stagnation.

However, I would buy them for my Militaria collection because I love to collect and history is my hobby. Do I buy SS shoulder boards with LAH cyphers of any type ? yes when the price is right. Do I have LAH cyphers direct from veteran ? yes when they have been kind enough to give them to me or let me buy them. Do I have different LAH cyphers to compare with in my collection ? yes I can hold one in the left hand and another in the right hand then see the differences. It makes for interesting comparisons especially the veteran brought back examples,

Chris

p.s. have I used the internet to read/ study the endless debate and threads about these LAH cyphers ? yes that is an advantage of the internet. Was what I read over the years correct ? who knows ?

[90th Light]

Chris --

It never ceases to amaze me (and others) how you always end up having the last word on everything even if, like in this case, you've never even personally handled LAH cyphers (the good and the bad)!

Ever asked youself why so many advanced collectors have left the forum in complete despair?

Cheers,
Markus

Some advanced collectors tell me that they do not want to post to then be simply dismissed, argued with, misquoted, abused and taken out of context.

It might be easy for today's key-board-worrier generation of Internet collectors to simply dismiss collectors of the caliber of Andrew Mollo, Ray Embree, Mike Beaver and Mark Bando as mistaken.

However, these guys have put the full nine yards into collecting this stuff back in the days when there was no easy internet/ google sticking plaster fix. They have meet more veterans and early collectors than most here put together.

As I have already stated; it would be interesting to learn why they had the "drill hole LAH cypher in their collections from a long way back. They are not fools. Imagine how many LAH cyphers with history they have been able to hold in their hands and compare over time.

Yet we dismiss what they had and the time period they picked them up lightly. With out the benefit of more facts, who can say more ?

Chris

[markus]

Gentlemen -

Below an affidavit (page 1 of 2) issued to me by a German veteran and very good friend of mine. May he rest in peace. ( I also have photos and an HD video of when he gave me his jacket, cufftitle, ring, photos, the complete military estate, 1.5 h)

I can assure everyone seriously interested in learning about LAH cyphers, that after 17 years of vividly collecting 'LAH,' visiting and meeting many LAH/HJ veterans (I hold the HIAG honor badge in Gold), I have never come across a single 'drill-hole-cypher' - ever.

I have deleted personal data of my friend in this document for obvious reasons.

Chris will forever have the last word, I'm sure, so that's it from me here.

I'm looking forward to Chris' posting of an original 'drill-hole-cypher' (obverse/reverse) with full German veteran provenance. Until then...

Cheers!
Markus

PS: I kindly ask the collectors who recognize my friend to not publish his name for the sake of the family.

[Disco Partisan]

I have found one more example of the same cypher (with drilled holes) shown as original in another reference book. So now we have four books where this type is shown.
After Steve/SJP posted obvious cast fakes with drilled holes I thought that is probably because Steve's ciphers have been copied from original "drill-hole-cypher" shown in the books and there is still a chance that the ones in books are original.
Well I wasted the whole day today for deep analysis of these 'drill-hole-cyphers" They are 100% fake - all of them and this is absolutely without any doubt. If needed I can illustrate but there is no mistake and you can just believe my word.
BTW Steve/SJP you posted two different fakes though of the same original type and both are die-cast but made by different "hand"/two fakers.

[SJP]

I have found one more example of the same cypher (with drilled holes) shown as original in another reference book. So now we have four books where this type is shown.
After Steve/SJP posted obvious cast fakes with drilled holes I thought that is probably because Steve's ciphers have been copied from original "drill-hole-cypher" shown in the books and there is still a chance that the ones in books are original.
Well I wasted the whole day today for deep analysis of these 'drill-hole-cyphers" They are 100% fake - all of them and this is absolutely without any doubt. If needed I can illustrate but there is no mistake and you can just believe my word.
BTW Steve/SJP you posted two different fakes though of the same original type and both are die-cast but made by different "hand"/two fakers.

Right DP......the books don't show the reverse which is JUST as important as the obverse. 20 + years ago these where exposed as fakes.The ones I posted were attached to boards....both from "good sources" One has to keep in mind these are generational.As the copies are exposed the "improvements" soon follow.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Cheers Steve

[Disco Partisan]

Right DP......the books don't show the reverse which is JUST as important as the obverse. 20 + years ago these where exposed as fakes.The ones I posted were attached to boards....both from "good sources" One has to keep in mind these are generational.As the copies are exposed the "improvements" soon follow.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Cheers Steve

Actually, Russian books show the reverse. I just never looked at it as I do not have any "drill-hole-cypher". Below I add a picture of the reverse from the book. It is the same poor quality of cast copy as the copy that you posted earlier

the same cypher is shown as original in the Russian book about SS insignias "Hell Force"(2006) on the page#101 (below)

[Disco Partisan]

Steve and here are the cast-fake cyphers that you posted (I just enlarged them). The cypher shown in the Russian book (above) is identical to the left-hand fake below.

[Disco Partisan]

I agree with what you said that "the reverse ..is JUST as important as the obverse" but here it is important to note that some of these fake cyphers have more accurate reverse than the ones posted above and they do not look like "obvious cast" but more like die-strike but careful detailed examination reveals that they have all been made by the same hand.

For example, below is a picture of officer's gold cypher shown as original in another Russian reference book (below).

[Disco Partisan]

I know a collector who bought(as original) this very cypher (that is shown in the book above). He provided better quality images of it (below)




the reverse enlarged : nice smooth surface and edges are more like what you see on die-strike rather than die-cast items (@top-left is a post-production damage)

[Disco Partisan]

After some studding of LAH cyphers I believe there are two original types of LAH cyphers. Obviously these drill-hole-fakes were copied from this original type (below)



the reverse of the officer's/gold fake cypher could be seen "in line" with the original (below)

[Robert H]

What is this with your books? I don't care I you have 30 books with cyphers. There are two ways original or copy and nothing between. It's all crap you try to defend on WAF.

[Disco Partisan]

Nevertheless, they are all die-cast it is just some of them appear more "obvious die-cast" and some of them less. Below is another "obvious die-cast" example

[Disco Partisan]

What is this with your books? I don't care I you have 30 books with cyphers. There are two ways original or copy and nothing between. It's all crap you try to defend on WAF.

Perhaps you should re-read what I actually said here as I don't defend it but show why they are "crap" BTW I doubt anyone has ever learned more than I about the original LAH cyphers