Mike Beaver and Mark Bando SS insignia book

[tokarev]

Thanks!

In my opinion that is not correct. Photos are superb. Only a few you can tell are scans of Mike's old 35mm photos, but that is what Mark had to work with. The vast majority are high quality. The photos are worth the price of the book alone.

Got barked at by the Mrs. as I was flipping through the book for the 1000th time when I was 'supposed' to be listening to her....

[sszza2]

It is a wonderful book with so few small mistakes that it exceeds the past reference books.

I invite all critics to produce a book and I will provide any photos and information I can.

Authoring and publishing is a thankless job and I give my salute to those brave souls who make this great effort. It is never too late to have new reference material.

Bob Hritz

Amen Bob. Most importantly not agenda driven to seek control of information, feed a cabal or manipulate market. Pure scholarship for the sake of scholarship. Wish they could all be like this. Couldn't ask for better!

Scott

[NickG]

One thing I noticed in this EXCELLENT book is this caption...which appears on page 318.
Note the wooden sole "camp" boots which to me indicates these are not murdered SS guards as described...
More likely Russian POW's (since they're not wearing striped inmate garb...instead tattered uniforms of some sort devoid of insignia).
I think the vet who helped with this caption totally misidentified them...(because of the hobnails maybe???)
According to the web Russian POW's were at Dachau in one of the sub camps and at least 500 Soviet POWs were executed by a firing squad in Dachau.

[NickG]

CorporalSteiner from the UK posted these a while ago...Certainly not identical but similar....
Note also the straps as in the image...hobnails, horseshoe heel protector...
You can see the hobnails in the period image!

[NickG]

Here is mine...( I have a set of these...often explained away as post war made for civilian market...1946-ish)
but with hobnails??? Mine look more like infantry boots...(some kind of guard boot, static use?)

I also started a thread in the equipment section, not wanting to hi-jack this thread any further!
Discussion can be continued in that section! (under "wooden sole boots question" title). Just an observation in this great book!

[billbert]

For Me...great book...I own it...Billbert

[Disco Partisan]

This is the page in the book.

Thank you very much for the picture
Unfortunately it is not a very detailed picture of the the monogram (with drilled holes) but I am pretty sure that the same cypher is shown as original in the Russian book about SS insignias "Hell Force"(2006) on the page#101 (below)

So IMO there is a good chance for this cypher of being indeed original

[brooksbz]

As discussed before, be suspicious of books unless the conclusions can be confirmed by other outside independent sources. I think a new thread on drilled holed cyphers would be pretty cool.

[Disco Partisan]

As discussed before, be suspicious of books unless the conclusions can be confirmed by other outside independent sources. I think a new thread on drilled holed cyphers would be pretty cool.

I agree fakes shown as original can be seen in every book. But here we have two independent books (American and Russian and BTW both are the best on the subject in their countries) both show the same variant of the LAH monogram with drilled holes. Of course it is still possible that both made a mistake by showing the same fake variant of the LAH cypher but here is the third book where the same variant with drilled holes is shown : Printed in 1976 "Uniforms of the SS. Volume 7. Waffen SS Badges and Unit Distinctions 1939-1945" by Andrew Mollo

Again it is still possible that Mollo also made mistake but after three independent books showing the same variant it would be much harder for me to say that it was a mistake

[SJP]

LAH cypher

The ones shown are fakes (IMHO). These have been around since Mollo"s book.

As stated in earlier posts the reverse side tells the whole story.

There are one lookers and one look fakes
Cheers Steve

[markus]

The ones shown are fakes (IMHO). These have been around since Mollo"s book.

As stated in earlier posts the reverse side tells the whole story.

There are one lookers and one look fakes
Cheers Steve

+1

Fully agree with veteran collector Steve.

A lot of collectors have been screwed with these over the decades. You will find them frequently added to put-together fake wannabe "LAH" tunics.

I still remember when Kai Winkler and his fake factory had 50+ of these from mint to well-used, gold and silver, single or in pairs in one (!) single update...(go figure)

Once you've handled originals, you will definitely not be fooled by these.


Cheers,
Markus

[90th Light]

"There are one lookers and one look fakes"

Cheers Steve

"and then there is all the rest"


This is not exactly a big revelation of a fake or Mark Brando stuffing up with what he put in the book. I think Mark has stated clearly and summed it up nicely with what he has said about the "LAH" cypher with the drilled out holes;

"This debate remains unresolved"

I also note that the example shown is from Ray Embree's collection. He had seen, handle and owned more original SS items than I have had hot dinners.

If Ray Embree had that in his collection then he had it for a reason. It would be very interesting to learn where that example came from and why Mike Beaver chose it for the book.

Mark Brando, Ray Embree, Mike Beaver and Andrew Mollo combined add to a very high number of years of collecting/ experience of SS insignia and items,

Chris

[gj dettore]

Chris,
I was about to state the same but you beat me to it. Ponder this fellow collectors/historians, when the remainder of Bando's SS Insignia book stock is depleted what will be the selling price then?

[SJP]

Lah

Chris , your missing the point ......your only seeing half the picture. I have a Dozen copies some better than others .I realized a long time ago ...when you "have the rest " the only sure way is to remove it from the board ...something the faker is banking on your not going to do .
Cheers Steve

[90th Light]

Chris , your missing the point ......your only seeing half the picture. I have a Dozen copies some better than others .I realized a long time ago ...when you "have the rest " the only sure way is to remove it from the board ...something the faker is banking on your not going to do .
Cheers Steve

No Steve,

I am not missing any point and I see the full picture.

Its case of perception and how each collectors sees it based on their personality or experience. The classic case of "old hag or beautiful young women looking sideways".

The real danger for us all is the faker ,especially those who aim to perfect what they sell. This are the real mence to the whole who collect this stuff.

But on the other hand, the challenge is what a very experienced collector of 50+ years of collecting told me. I asked him, how many of a certain item would he have owned or handled in his time as a collector. His reply was just under 200. He then asked me how many thousands or millions they made to equip the German army during WW2 ? All he has ever had the chance to own, see or handle was a very narrow sample of the total they made. Many call him an expert in that field of collecting but he often ponders the examples, types and makers that he has not yet had the opportunity to study.

He also said; today's internet collector has become skilled at identifying the fake and is always the look out for such things. However he is not so skilled at picking the real thing in certain cases.

This situation and challenge applies to these "LAH" cyphers. It is very easy to become hard and fast based on a closing of ranks during internet discussion/ debate. However all that proves is the bonding of a certain group dynamic and hierarchy of individuals. The "hole drilled LAH cyphers have been handled and studied by 4 very advanced/ experienced collectors to whom I have already referred to in post number 42. Not one of them wrote these off as fake. May be they have not yet come to a final conclusion. Questioning, research and reasoned debate will eventually sort the wheat from the chaff. In some areas that will happen quickly, others will take longer and some may take many years.

Yet I read on this thread and others that there are clear fakes in Mark Brando's finishing of Mike Beavers book. Everyone has suddenly knows now that the "hole drilled LAH cyphers" are a post war fakes. If this is the case then could someone please refer me to where the ground breaking findings are published ???

I finish by again restating what Mark Brando published;

"This debate remains unresolved" and I have no horse in the race but follow the case with interest ,

Chris