Camo coming from Lorenzo - Helmet cover

[spoof]

What a joke this entire thread is.

One man claims fake with no evidence other than deflagrant opinion. Others blindly jump aboard.

Ridiculous.

[kammo man]

Are you saying we are all dumb Spoof ?

All I see is a faker who is a scumbag who ripped of people

Is this thread a joke ?

Not to the victims of the fraud it isn't

[jacquesf]

What a joke this entire thread is.

One man claims fake with no evidence other than deflagrant opinion. Others blindly jump aboard.

Ridiculous.

and we wonder why this hobby is in the state that is. Everybody cries about the abundance of fakes and fraud and how it destroys the hobby and scares new and drive old collectors away.

When it gets exposed like in this, the Champagne and other threads, you invariably have the type of responses you found here. Therefor the core of it will stay rotten. J

[BenVK]

You can lead a horse to water etc etc

Reminds me of this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=544347

Stonemint and others are doing the whole community a great service by alerting everyone to fake caps on an almost daily basis. That doesn't stop people buying them though and actually, there's been a noticeable increase in the bidding and prices lately.

[RobertE]

and we wonder why this hobby is in the state that is. Everybody cries about the abundance of fakes and fraud and how it destroys the hobby and scares new and drive old collectors away.

When it gets exposed like in this, the Champagne and other threads, you invariably have the type of responses you found here. Therefor the core of it will stay rotten. J

You are overselling the value of this thread to the collecting community. This thread, by it's very title, was meant to show that Lorenzo was behind a broad scheme where he made "Lorenzo" covers and then embarked on a scheme to sell them wholesale as real.

The thread proved none of that. For every person posting a bad cover, others stated that Lorenzo always declared restored or reproduction items in his discussions and sales, and others claim they bought good items from him.

Pat yourself on the back all you want, but other than showing a few items allegedly sold by Lorenzo to people, there is no sage advice being ignored here. In fact, there's no advice at all other than to avoid Lorenzo.

s/f Robert

[John_B]

As I stated earlier I heard a while ago that at least some UK dealers were well aware of these covers and liquidated their stocks ....
Ian

It's not a rumour Ian, it was perfectly true. One even had several . I'm afraid this has been know for a number of years, not months......years!

[RobertE]

Stonemint and others are doing the whole community a great service by alerting everyone to fake caps on an almost daily basis. That doesn't stop people buying them though and actually, there's been a noticeable increase in the bidding and prices lately.

Completely agree. Calling out fake items being currently sold, real items that have been upgraded and sold at higher profit, "groups" augmented, rebadged items - all good for the community.

I and others have alerted buyers listing items that are not in the possession of the seller, pointed out lifted photos used in false advertising, and shared info on other skullduggery. Many good collectors step up to help out the broader community, all the time, and that practice is to be commended.

This witch hunt, however, may have made some people feel good but wasn't particularly helpful.

s/f Robert

[Ian Hulley]

This witch hunt

This is FACT not a 'witch hunt'.

It may be convenient to live in denial with this (especially if you have a subject cover) but look around and see how many are at present sat on dealer's websites ?? .......

For what ever reason there are always the same few who wish to muddy the waters, to make black and white grey.

Read what I said, read what John_B (a prominent UK dealer) said ..

It's not a rumour Ian, it was perfectly true. One even had several . I'm afraid this has been know for a number of years, not months......years!

and ask yourself .. What do either of us have to gain by posting that ?

Ian

[RobertE]

Ian, I believe you completely that dealers in the UK (and in the US, and elsewhere) are selling reproduction helmet covers. I have no doubt whatsoever.

I was not accusing you of misrepresenting anything, and sincerely apologize if it came off that way.

No one is refuting that fakes are being sold by dealers. But I don't understand how asking someone - anyone - to provide evidence that supports the title of this thread is muddying the waters and obscuring the facts (making black and white grey).

Now, if you are saying that you know for a fact that Lorenzo made the exact covers were being sold by UK dealers, and that you know that he sold these covers as real with intent to deceive, than you have our smoking gun linkage.

I don't have one of the helmet covers attributed to Lorenzo, don't owe him money, and frankly don't care whether I'm accepted into anyone's circle of friends here. I don't like bullying and unwarranted attacks, and have asked repeatedly why Lorenzo in particular has been singled out in this hunt (read witch) as the mastermind behind this fraud.

s/f Robert

[leib1]

I think saying dealer this dealer that why not just name the dealers who sold them not ever body is privy to this information.The only UK dealer I know, would have been Flatken as he was knocking out just about everything from uniforms to Para helmets all fake.Getting most of his gear from Czechoslovakia

[John_B]

I think saying dealer this dealer that why not just name the dealers who sold them not ever body is privy to this information.The only UK dealer I know, would have been Flatken as he was knocking out just about everything from uniforms to Para helmets all fake.Getting most of his gear from Czechoslovakia

Flackin (Brian) has been out of the game for many years, he now resides in Jamaica...

[jacquesf]

Lorenzo has been exposed moving these fake covers, not much argument against that. In terms of Roberts argument that is OK as long as he does not make them. How many dealers have been slammed for "moving "/ selling fakes, now in terms of Robert that is OK as they did not make the fakes. What an insanely, ridicilous argument. J

[DonC]

Damn - this is almost as good reading as a Gottlieb thread...

Don

[RobertE]

Lorenzo has been exposed moving these fake covers, not much argument against that. In terms of Roberts argument that is OK as long as he does not make them. How many dealers have been slammed for "moving "/ selling fakes, now in terms of Robert that is OK as they did not make the fakes. What an insanely, ridicilous argument. J

That is not my argument. I am absolutely not saying it's OK to sell any replica as real for any reason - where did you get that crackpot idea?

If you read what I and others have repeatedly written, this "expose" on Lorenzo's alleged scheme discusses him producing items - whole uniforms, covers, caps - then selling them as original. That's what you and others allege, and the title reflects.

What I'm not comfortable with is why you and others continue to focus on the fact that the three - maybe four - items posted here that are said to have come from Lorenzo do NOT address his supposed industry, or his intent to deceive. That's it? That's the massive scheme uncovered?

Just so you don't misunderstand again, I'm not saying it's OK for anyone to sell an item he knows is replica as real, for any reason at any time. I'm a collector and have been ripped off; I know the disappointment that follows the discovery you've been duped. Got it.

I am saying:

• collectors make mistakes and sell fake for real - look at the SS helmets thread on same. Many legitimate collectors and dealers bought those and sold them, but it wasn't an orchestrated scheme by a world-side collectors consortium.
• You and others have failed to produce evidence that Lorenzo was wittingly selling fakes - witting means that he knows they were fake but sold them as real
• You have failed to show that he had a hand in making what you and others term "Lorenzo covers" - calling them that doesn't make it so

I doubt that cleared anything up. Can you address any of the above three bullets with anything other than subjective blurtings, based on actual direct knowledge instead of PM intrigues and guesswork?

s/f Robert

[Dennis J]

That is not my argument. I am absolutely not saying it's OK to sell any replica as real for any reason - where did you get that crackpot idea?

If you read what I and others have repeatedly written, this "expose" on Lorenzo's alleged scheme discusses him producing items - whole uniforms, covers, caps - then selling them as original. That's what you and others allege, and the title reflects.

What I'm not comfortable with is why you and others continue to focus on the fact that the three - maybe four - items posted here that are said to have come from Lorenzo do NOT address his supposed industry, or his intent to deceive. That's it? That's the massive scheme uncovered?

Just so you don't misunderstand again, I'm not saying it's OK for anyone to sell an item he knows is replica as real, for any reason at any time. I'm a collector and have been ripped off; I know the disappointment that follows the discovery you've been duped. Got it.

I am saying:

• collectors make mistakes and sell fake for real - look at the SS helmets thread on same. Many legitimate collectors and dealers bought those and sold them, but it wasn't an orchestrated scheme by a world-side collectors consortium.
• You and others have failed to produce evidence that Lorenzo was wittingly selling fakes - witting means that he knows they were fake but sold them as real
• You have failed to show that he had a hand in making what you and others term "Lorenzo covers" - calling them that doesn't make it so

I doubt that cleared anything up. Can you address any of the above three bullets with anything other than subjective blurtings, based on actual direct knowledge instead of PM intrigues and guesswork?

s/f Robert

Just so you don't misunderstand again, I'm saying it's OK for anyone to sell an item he knows is replica as real, for any reason at any time. I'm a collector and have been ripped off; I know the disappointment that follows the discovery you've been duped. Got it.

WTF!

Dennis J